LS6Vette

Got a Predator U7193 for LS6 Vette (2004) and I am ready to load a performance tune but would like some more info first.

I was told that this tool will (among other things) disable CAGS. The owners manual does NOT mention this feature.

If it does this disable automatically (by default) that's OK, but I would like to know how (what parameters) it does it?

The bigger question, however, is what else is going to automatically happen? Fan speeds? Rev limiter? Lean out? Spark advance?

I'm not sure I want to turn my pcm over to what some tuner (as smart as he may be) thinks are some cool settings for my vehicle.

All the owners manual says is:

Performance Tune
87 Octane tune
Factory tune (you modify the factory tune)

I tried joining the DS forum, but I guess there is some delay built in to getting your PW, so I thought I would try here.

Not complaining about anything (well sort of I guess), but I really expected more detail in the owners manual, specifics about what you can do & what it changes & what to expect & how it all gets managed in the pcm.

It's a bit of a "leap of faith" to just plug it in & let loose a bunch of undocumented stuff on my pcm.

Maybe some guys don't want to know how it all works, but I would.

Is there a supplement for 2004 LS6 tool that gives the details of what EXACTLY you are loading/changing with the performance tune on my 04 ls6 engine?

Thanks guys.

06MonteSS

Not too sure about the CAGS or what is automatically applied for your vehicle, since I don't have a Vette... but here's what I CAN offer you for more info...

http://diablosport.com/index.php?mod...display&pid=98

http://diablosport.com/index.php?nam...iewtopic&t=917

Sneakyws6

The CAGS delete is automatic. The Predator finds the CAGS file and turns it off. Sometimes it misses it as it did with mine due to how GM can loads the factory tunes into the ECM and Diablo had to edit it for me.

I know on the other setting you can manually override them IE change the fan on and off settings for both fans as well as the rest of the settings. I know that Diablo has a way to tune the fans to where they can stay on for so many seconds after the key is turned off as mine are done that way.

I have been into alot of the setting and what not on my Predator. If you got questions keep them coming or pm sprayjunkie as I am 100% postive he can help you without a doubt as he has a hook up on Predator knowledge.

06MonteSS

yeah, sprayjunkie (Mike) works for/at Diablosport, so he's your man...

LS6Vette

Thanks guys, good info.

Mike, if you see this, could you post/email me the SPECIFIC and COMPLETE list of changes that the U7193 will do to my 2004 LS6 (Z06) Vette pcm? Someone at Diablo must have kept some notes on what the tool does to each pcm (I assume). Thank You.

Like I said earlier, I am ready to try it, but I need some detail as to what actually will be changed on the pcm. The owners manual give you very little and the web site has a long list of "It could do this or that or max/min parameters, but not what my tool will actually do to my pcm.

Sorry to be one of those guys who just has to know how stuff works.

sprayjunkie

The tool will disable CAGS, however I am unsure as to whether that application is done automatically or of you need to go into the 'modify tune' menu and disable it manually.
Other automatic changes when installing the tune do include raising rev and speed limiters, lowering the fan onset temps, leaning out the fuel mixture, and adding a bit of timing in most applications. We also improve throttle response through the DBW system.
These tunes are definitely not created based on what our tuner 'thinks' is cool, we spend hundreds of hours testing and developing these tunes on the street and dyno to be sure they offer the most power and driveability while staying safe. In fact, there is probably more thorough testing done on our tunes than any other 'tunes' that are available anywhere.
A document explaining what all has been changed in these tunes almost defeats the purpose of a handheld tuner, because most of the guys and girls purchasing a handheld simply do not possess the knowledge required to properly tune a vehicle, nor would the documented changes make much sense to anyone other than a qualified tuner.
Its not so much of a leap of faith when you consider we have sold thousands of Predators and have just as many happy customers.

Let me know if I can answer any specific questions for you.

If you do not get a password for our forums, email our webmaster please.

Thanks
Mike

LS6Vette

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the post. I did not mean it in a negative sense when I said I wanted to know what changes were made, before I install them, and not trust what a tuner thought was "cool". I know a lot of thought & testing goes into the changes. My flip way of posting made it sound wrong I guess. Sorry.

You listed the "automatic" changes but not much specific. I don't think you have to be a pro tuner to want to know how many rpm's your rev limiter is going to be boosted. Maybe the Diablo tuner thinks that my LS6 will take 500 extra rpm & maybe I would not be comfortable with that.

My point is, how the heck do I get "comfortable" with making a lot of totally unknown changes to my fairly expensive car when nobody will say what the changes are going to be?

It seems to me perfectly rational & reasonable to request that info. That's what I am doing.

I would like to take the discussion to the DS forum but your webmaster has not sent me a password, so we are stuck here.

"Thousands of happy customers" & (implied) "trust us" is not good enough, sorry.

Is it like a "holy grail" search to find out specific info for the "performance tune" on an 04 ls6?

I would of thought it simple to post or email the specifics to a new customer paying full retail for the tool.

Heck, I'm thinking I should have gone with the Vinci, sorry. This is like pulling teeth to get info. My email & PM are on. My fingers are crossed.

sprayjunkie

I was not looking to turn you off to the product at all.
I will ask our tuner if he can give me any more specific details about your specific application.
In the Z06 we do not raise the rev limiters. There is an adjustable parameter that will allow you to raise or lower it from the stock setting if you'd like.
I'll see if I can get a total WOT timing number for you from our tuner, and let me know any other specific changes that you'd like to know about.

Thanks
Mike

LS6Vette

Sent Predator back. Lack of info available on what SPECIFICALLY the performance tune will do to my LS6 pcm. To be 100% honest, I could not get much better info from Vinci.

Employees at both said they would get certain info for me & I am still waiting.

Maybe I require a bit more hard facts & specifics on these tuners than the "average" retail buyer, sorry that's just me.

I'm not sure it'll be any better with the tuning "suites" being sold. This whole area of fine tuning the factory tune on late model vehicles, be they trucks or f bodies or ls6's seems to be short on specifics & long on "trust us" we are great guys & you'll love how your vehicle runs after you plug it in.

But the forums are full of "problems" with specific vehicles. This didn't work on mine or it felt the same to me, or wow what a difference.

So how the heck is an informed, fairly knowledgeble guy like me, supposed to make sense of it all?

I guess I'll just hold off for a few months & see if any of these companies mature & provide some real quantifiable performance alternatives.

mrr23

iTrader: (3)

what specifically are you wanting to know about the vinci tuner? i'll see if i can answer them. here's a webpage i made about the vinci tuner http://www.stealthram.com/vhptuner.htm

there are some things that will be propriortary information that none of the vendors will just let out.

tuning suites don't have any 'secrets' about what they tune, because they don't tune anything. tuning suites allow you to do it all yourself.

06MonteSS

guess you won't ever be getting a tuner/programmer then, huh??

nobody's gonna give out that SPECIFIC info... that would just make it easier for their competitors to copy the settings/parameters and make the same tunes...

sprayjunkie

Sorry to hear that.
Did you even try the tune?
We spend so much time developing those tunes on the street and dyno, it would at least be something to test out.
If you make yourself familiar with the live data display in the Predator, you would be able to see how the tune affects your fuel trims and timing.
Botom line is you may want to look into some of the tuning classes being offered in a few places. A real tuner must have an intimate knowledge as to the inner workings of the PCM and how the changes being made take effect in the PCM. Without this knowledge, all you can really say is that the tune is a slightly leaned out, or some timing has been added.
Find a local tuner in your area with a good reputation, and see if he would tune the car on the dyno for you and allow you to watch. You may be amazed at the amount of changes that need to be made in multiple tables just to add timing. This may help you to understand how difficult it is to say exactly what is done in these tunes.

Good luck, hopefully we will have our manuals redone soon, I'll look you up and get one out to you.

LS6Vette

I'd like to know what the pre programmed tune will change in my pcm, ALL of what it will change, not bits 'n pieces. BTW Joe from Vinci, did actually call me back about a week later. I guess they moved? and phones were messed up for a few days.

I asked him how the rev limiter is raised on my car with cam1 tune & he gave me a specific answer, 300 rpm raise.

A specific question & a specific answer.

Now we are getting somewhere.

But still, like pulling teeth. I want to know all the stuff that it'll do to my pcm. If it's a secret, then fine, maybe I'll buy a suite & try it myself. I'd rather not, as my fun is in driving the car in competition, not the tuning.

I have to think about it some more & maybe talk to Vinci some more to get into the "comfort zone" with using one of these.

If I plug it in & my car starts to run like crap or SES comes on, I don't want to deal with a company whose answer is "look it up on one of the forums, or we'll have to get back to you, don't have the answer right now".

Thanks for the post.

LS6Vette

Thanks for the post, no did not even try it.

I don't want to become a tuner pro, I just want to know what is going to happen to my pcm with the pre programmed tune. I want to be able to restore stock tune & performance tune at MY convenience and at no additional cost (per visit). That's why I started looking into hand held tuners.


I just did not realize they were such "black boxes" where all the changes they made are secrets.

Maybe down the road when I stumble across some more specifics on the Predator, I'll try it again.

mrr23

iTrader: (3)

some of what you ask is proprietary. i can't tell everything it changes. but, i'll tell you as much as i can.

when selecting a particular tune, it will make changes to the timing tables, fueling tables, change rpm limits, reduces torque management, deals with burst knock, and deals with traction control. i won't tell you how much it changes and so on.

LS6Vette

Thanks. A 6 speed does not have torque mgmt, correct?

I turn t/c off when I compete.

So that leaves adv timing & lean out & bump the rev limiter a bit. Burst knock, I guess I can splash a little 100 unleaded in?

I think if I was getting maybe 10 hp/tq added on my LS6, it would be worth it.

From what I have been able to research, the gains (using hand held tuners) are substantial with say truck engines, but MUCH LESS with an engine like the LS6 which is already fairly well tuned.

Would you agree or not?

Thanks.

mrr23

iTrader: (3)

a 6 speed has no transmission torque management. still has engine torque management.

when i did track testing with the vinci tuner in my 2000 formula for vinci, i put in the hi-perf stock cam long with shift perfomance and firmness and picked up .2 and 1.4 mph.

mrr23

iTrader: (3)

a little hptuners guide i've been working on. this shows you the torque management tables.

http://www.fla-thirdgen.org/torquemanagement.htm

LS6Vette

What is the purpose of ENGINE torque management? Thanks, you have got some really good info. If I get the Vinci, would you help out with questions?

Apparently their owners manual (like the Predator also) is pretty skimpy on the details.

mrr23

iTrader: (3)

same purpose. if you enter the abuse mode, it will retard timing to reduce torque output.

i have no problems helping you out with the vinci tuner. i've talked to a guy on the phone for about 1/2 hour one night.