TomXTC

I have a 98 WS6 and for quite a while now operating the passenger side window motor has been "quirky". It would either allow me to roll it up and down via ONLY the drivers side switch OR sometimes only the passenger side switch. Never both worked at the same time. Not a big enough deal for me to do anything about it until now when it is partly down and raining and it has stopped working completely via either switch.
Last night I did after a few days get it to move about 1/2 inch accidentally using the drivers side switch, perhaps the motor gasping it's last breath.

My question is does this sound like a plain motor replacement or possibly something else? I also notice that the door locks actuate with the drivers side but not the passenger side. Not sure how long that has been going on.

The drivers side window and door locks work as they should.

I was a bit surprised to find out one needs to drill holes to get to the power window motor rivets but so be it. At least there are not those door panel fasteners that always break and take part of the panel with them so it's OK.
The replacement motors seem cheap enough. Any reason not to go aftermarket on these are the motors can be found for very little.

Any other possibilities aside from just a worn out motor before I just replace the motor and/or if motor replacement does not solve all the issues? The wiring to the switches themselves seem good without having taken the panel off yet.

Thanks in advance.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

You can't tell without getting in there and doing some electrical testing. The symptoms you post are like a dead motor, but your neglected switch problems could also have gotten worse.

You need to get an electrical diagram and test at the two switches. That will confirm what's going on with the switches and can give you a reasonable indication if power is getting to the motor from the switch assembly on the passenger side.


Another reason to get in there and test.


That's not the factory procedure. But - you don't want to do the factory procedure. It's a PITA, takes a lot longer, and will do damage to the door over time with repeated replacements.

TomXTC

I have ordered the motors, got a good deal for two to cover both windows. A while back I did buy a new switch from the dealer but can't quite recall why I did not need it.
So I have a new switch I can easily plug in to at least know if it is a switch issue or something else.

I have the factory manuals, just need to unpack them from moving. I will see what they say about changing the motors out. I just watched some videos from the new and past threads from forums like this one. It might also help if the motors and or new switch don't fix everything. Though honestly getting the windows to work properly is all I care about right now.

Honestly it seems like a poor design to both cover up things in such as way and to use rivets on high wear items like window motors that will need to be replaced down the road. It is like Vette and T/A pop up headlights. Every Vette or Bird I have owned with them have had the motors go bad. But it is what it is.

That said at least the door panels come off easily without damaging them unlike so many earlier designs with the fasteners and weak panels that would break and be a real PITA. One positive.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

You do know to get the new Dorman design, right?


They tell you to pull the regulator, which requires drilling out rivets. (This does damage to the door skin - unlike the shbox method where you drill holes to access the motor rivets. Once you get the regulator out following the factory procedure, you also have to do some stuff to keep the thing from un-springing on you and/or chopping your hand off. (It's pretty dangerous without the weight of the window on it. I've done the factory procedure and the shbox method and hands-down the shbox method is the only way to go. BTW - The factory method also requires special rivets and an industrial sized riveter. The wrong rivets will also damage the door skin.

TomXTC

Thanks,
I certainly agree with the drilling out the 3 rivet method. I have watched two videos of people doing that start to finish and think I have that down. Including ensuring the window is clamped in place so it doesn't drop.

The factory method sounds way to easy to damage the car and possibly myself, especially doing it on this particular car for the first time. I will take your word and just do it the suggested way.

The new motors don't show if they come with the new nuts and bolts but if not I am inclined to use nylock lock nuts with same or slightly larger diameter bolts to keep them tight.

While the drivers side is working OK right now I am inclined to replace it at the same time. Get all the windows and locks working properly so I don't have to deal with them again sometime (possibly soon) down the road.

I wish I had done that when I rebuilt my headlight motor with the brass gear since now I can't find the second brass gear for when that side goes out.

TomXTC

I have also been considering using a small hole saw vs a straight drill bit for making the holes. Also buying some rubber plugs of the proper size to cover the holes up after I am done even if it is just a cosmetic thing nobody will likely ever see. It will only cost me a buck more to do so. Videos on some of these things, especially when the directions in a factory manual are not as good as an alternative method such as in this case are very helpful. So are forums for specific vehicles like LS1Tech here...assuming your question gets answered. Answering others questions and/or making posts on how to do things are very much appreciated by myself and I am sure many others.

I am making one for a HID retrofit (a proper one using Infinity G37 HID projectors, not a plug and play POS) on my motorcycle for that reason. Since nobody had posted if ever done this exact bikes conversion it took a lot of figuring out and designing even working with a large high end HID component company. Hopefully I can save someone a hell of a lot of hours and help them accomplish an awesome OEM grade installation and lighting results which will give back a bit for others that have made helpful posts I have benefited from.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

This is wise. IMO - Better than a wrongly matched bolt/washer. You'll need to get these off again some day. Rivets are also great, but you need an extra large body riveter for 1/4" rivets.


I'd hold off. Over 10 motors I've received, 3 were duds out of the box and 2 died within the first year. I'd hold off until you need the new one and just keep it on the shelf. If you didn't get Dormans, the motor in your door could last longer than the "new" ones in the boxes.


Brass gears aren't all they are cracked up to be. They don't solve a common issue that leads to the gear stripping in the first place: https://ls1tech.com/forums/stereo-el...ght-doors.html

TomXTC

I will consider holding off on the motor after I see how the new one runs.

I don't have a decent riveter but I can get high quality nuts and bolts so that is what I will use there. One video used silicone on regular nuts and bolts that were smaller and came with the motor. I think high quality bolts with matching nylocks is a better bet for me. I know I can do a proper job this way.

I had thought about asking about brands to use or more importantly to stay away from. I just had limited time and funds to dedicate to this and the window is not even all the way up and I needed them fast and cheap. I was interested in which brands worked best and why to avoid duds. I will just hope that these work well for a long time and see how the window rolls up compared to the other one etc.. If the drivers side is significantly slower I might replace it. If not I probably won't.

Interesting on the headlight motor fix, I did read the thread you posted. Although the brass gear kit has fixed the issue for me so far. I don't recall the specifics any longer but they seemed to be the best at the time and did some with new rubber bumpers and a T bracket and new grease etc. Also I did not end up having to cut the motor open, it had bolts, so perhaps it had already been replaced and worn out again due to still using a plastic gear. My car only had about 35K miles on it at the time. The car now has about 57K miles.

So maybe there is an even better fix but I still feel pretty good about it since it has worked and not gone bad again. GM really went cheap on headlight motors. I have owned several Vettes and T/A's/Formulas and all had headlight motor issues.

I came across these photos of the gears along side the stock plastic ones but can't recall the specifics I alluded to.

I have several other things I need to get done with the car, I should make separate posts but perhaps you know this one. I brushed against a shrub with the headlights open and it took a couple of the screws and U nuts out. No serious damage just need to replace those so it sits right. I don't know the correct size so the only thing I can think to do is remove another one and match it up at the store.

I have had some factory manuals that listed the sizes of every fastener used which was pretty helpful. I don't think the 3 volume manual for this car has that sort of detail.

Thank for the help,
T

TomXTC

Got the screws from the dealer today when I went to get posi additive for the rear diff.
I am sure there is a discussion on that here but I changed the diff oil last year using M1 synthetic without the additive and won't be omitting the additive again.
Thanks for the tips on the factory method. Glad I saw the videos and posts on the alternative method first. Your explanation on the factory manual method convinced me to do the alternative method for sure.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Did you get screwed by the dealer on the cost of the posi additive or did you get the motor screws from the dealer?

TomXTC

Well of course screwed on the posi additive being I bought it from a dealer. It was a couple cheaper at other dealers but with gas it would not have made sense. It was 13 bucks. But they gave me the screws I needed for the pop up headlight cover for free which helped a bit. Now I just have to find a place to safely jack the car up to get to the rear end to put the additive in. I am not at my own house and don't have my own tools and jacks and such. Just don't want to get crushed putting the additive in, also don't want to pay someone for such as simple thing.

kramsdell

I ordered a set of Dorman motors, one was DOA and replaced. The replacement worked, and was installed on the passenger side, but still rolls up slower than the drivers side.


Back on topic, you can take the motors out and test them with some wires hooked up to the window motor, then connect that to your battery. Good luck!

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

I understand this is a common issue for all companies. GM was just the last one to make cars with these types of headlights. Other manufacturers retreated long ago. (I recall that aerodynamics/efficiency struck the death blow that got rid of them from the GM line-up.)


Yes, but a motor with a thermal cutoff problem will show as being good when there is no load on it. So, testing it out of the door will only confirm a really bad motor is really bad. It won't tell you if all bad motors are indeed bad.

TomXTC

Well I was able to get two for super cheap and will cross my fingers. I also got free shipping that only takes 3 days to get here and I need them asap.
If one of the motors were DOA I could use the second one. I will be able to test it a bit by seeing how fast it is vs the motor in the drivers side that is working.

I seriously think it is just the motor. Yesterday when I had to wait for someone in my car I took the passenger switches out and used the window switch on the car locks and the car locks worked. So that switch is good and the one for the locks is bad. Since a known good switch doesn't help I am betting on the motor being bad. It got progressively worse which also tells me it is a wear issue. If I plug the new motor in and it doesn't work I will try the second. If that doesn't work then I will start looking for other issues. Not having the door apart yet I am not sure if I can unplug the motor before taking it out. If I could then I would be able to test the new motors before drilling.

TomXTC

Well they are cool looking in some applications. The Lamborghni Countach had them.
But for decades they used those plastic gears which was a design flaw that would have cost them a few pennies so it never got fixed. The headlights in the 4th gen birds are not exactly state of the art either. Old fashioned sealed beam headlights. They work and I don't mind but they are far from the greatest.
I am not sure if the "fog lights" in the front air dam are actually supposed to do something or just be cosmetic. I sometimes use them as running lights instead of using the main headlights but they are not bright enough for any useful purpose I can see. Maybe someday I will install some HID projectors in their place, then they would work really well.

demonspeed

iTrader: (7)

My ACDelco replacement has been working just fine Of course, it's only been two years and 5000 miles

I only hijack this thread with that since I know wssix99 has a boner for Dorman montors

Just as an FYI for anyone who pops in this thread while searching for window motor fixes, the thread I used (which shows how to do the drill out method rather than GM dismantle) is: http://shbox.com/page/windowmotor.html

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Plastic on metal tells me the gear was meant to be a wear item. (So the plastic gear would break instead of the metal worm gear.) IMO - the design flaw is not the use of a plastic gear but the lack of a door on the OEM motors to replace it!


They work really well in the fog at slow speeds because they illuminate the roadway close to the car. Funny how that works...

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Is it that noticeable? From now on, only loose fitting jeans when I type.


My Dormans have been going for 4+ years, so I guess that makes my boner longer than yours?

TomXTC

I was being sarcastic. I know they are intended to be "fog lights" but have not worked worth crap for anything including fog of which I have had plenty of. I was being serious about their possibly being a good place for HID projectors though. And I do actually use them in tunnels or when it is not dark enough for the main headlights. But that is the only stock use I find for them.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Oh. I've had pretty good luck with mine. Maybe that's because I'm in a Formula and mine are out at the corners vs. in the center.

I endure the social stigmas and public ridicule of not driving a T/A, but there are so many situations where it pays off. Come to the dark side - replace your T/A bumper with a Formula one!