Martingale

I'm sorry but this is amazing to see a bunch of people who own Firebirds arguing if their car is a Firebird or not.

99Hawk325

We ain't the brightest bunch but we got nice looking cars! <g>

demonspeed

iTrader: (7)

Why did someone have to revive this

Muffracing

I don't care if someone calls my T/a A firebird, but when they call it a camaroand I correct them. Then they say "same thing." Hate that. Or people would confuse my '99 firebird with my mom's '00 cebring convert. WTF?

HPP

And that's the point. IF it's a "firebird", then it is a Camaro. If it's not a Camaro, it's not a Firebird.

The physical differences between Firebird and Camaro are the same as between a Firebird and Trans Am.

demonspeed

iTrader: (7)

Huh? One has a bow tie, another has an arrowhead. There is a difference.

HPP

Yeah, exactly. A "body kit", some options, and a badge. That's it. Just like the 2 major levels of Pontiac F-Body.

Muffracing

We (including myself) have too much time on our hands to be arguing about something this pointless.

"Arguing on the Internet is like running in the Special Olympics, even if you win you’re still retarded!"

HPP

I once got banned from a forum for mentioning that. lol

I'm not really arguing though. It can be called a Firebird. And certainly more validly than a Camaro, but still, you have to admit, that the only differences are a trim level, a bumper, and a spoiler (between Camaro and Firebird). And that's really the differnce between Firebird and Trans Am.

And despite the fact that Pontiac put "Firebird" on my title, the ultimate test is -

When someone talks to you about a Firebird, you think of this -


When they talk to you about a Formula, you think of this -


When they talk to you about a Trans Am, you think of this -


Or this -

demonspeed

iTrader: (7)

I'll just go by what it says on the window sticker and title.

So everyone who thinks their Trans Am is just a Trans Am and not a Firebird, look at your title and find your window sticker.

NO-OPTION-2002

iTrader: (2)

Uhh.. is my car a Z28 or a Camaro.

Muffracing

Sorry, the Special Olympics are a great organization. Racing a Honda would have been a better analogy. JK about the Hondas

HPP

What makes it so? Just because someone else decided it and stamped it on some paper?

Seriously. What is the *real* differences? When you get down to it, you're going by something totally arbitrary.

And you're ignoring the point that when someone says "firebird", we don't think of a Trans Am. Just as when someone says Trans Am, we don't think of a Formula. And likewise, when someone says Formula we don't think of, say.....a Camaro. Minor body and interior differences in all of them. That's it. The real heart of the matter is miniscule differences. It is totally illogical to simply treat it with 2 sets of rules because someone else wrote something on a piece of paper.

demonspeed

iTrader: (7)

Doesn't matter. It's still a Firebird. The Trans Am is in the Firebird brochue, and IMO, if the title and window sticker says Firebird Trans Am, then it's regarded as a Firebird by the highest power (Pontiac/GM).

HPP

You're not going to let this go are ya? lol Well neither will I, ha!

So GM says it is, so it is, huh? Ok, let's try an analogy to show what's going on here.

Let's say I manufacture an item, let's say a gun. Specifically a revolver. It's a traditional modern revolver with all the usual stuff - fluted, swing out cylinder, DA, exposed hammer, fixed painted sights, and a choice of finshes.

Now lets say I call that the "Cowboy" (little pun if yer a gun guy. lol).

Ok, now, if I take that exact same design, and modify it slightly, say be putting in a non-fluted cylinder, an underbarrel rail for mounting lights or laser sights, tritium iron sights, and molded grips.

I could simply add something to the name to distinguish it, like "Cowboy Elite" or some such. And everyone would realize it was the same thing, but slightly different, right? I think we're on the same page here.

But....what if I chose to call it something entirely different? Like "Warstopper"? ('nother little pun, heh heh) What you are telling me is that that would make it *not* a "Cowboy" in your eyes, because the "highest authority", the manfacturer, in this case, me, decided to call it something different.

So let's say then that I took the 2nd route and now have 2 "models", and for each one I decide to offer an enhanced version. I simply take the existing "models" and re-chamber them for something bigger, and call them the "Cowboy SS" and the "Warstopper Formula" (note - I'm not equating a Formula with an SS, but as a name goes, these work best in the example).

Now on the finish of the gun, I put the names of the models. So on the Cowboy you see the word "Cowboy", and on the SS variant you see "Cowboy SS". But on the other variant I don't do that. I simply put "Formula" on there, but still refer to it as a Warstopper in my internal documentation and on the necessary paperwork.

Ok, so you're tellin me then that there would in actual fact be 2 distinct model lines in this case, each with a sub-type? But that if I instead called them the Cowboy, Cowboy RS, Cowboy SS, and Cowboy Z-28, that it would actually be 1 model line, with 3 sub-types?

We are talking about the same designs, the same differences, and the same frame (hell, let's call it the F-Frame. lol). But you don't care about the frame, or the specific differences, only what I, as the manufacturer, call it?

It doesn't make any sense.

In my example above, if the Warstopper is not a Cowboy, then the Formula is distinct as well because it's not labeled as a Warstopper anywhere on the item, and contains enough of a difference to warrant it's own name, and will be thought of by that name alone.





For non-gun guys - Ruger Vaquero (Vaquero means Cowboy in spanish), and Colt Peacemaker (possibly the most well known revolver ever made).



So anyway, both are correct. You can call the Trans Am a "Firebird", but that is stupid and creates confusion and is only a "Firebird" because someone else decided to call it that, not because it actually is. Likewise, the more specific thing to do is just to call it a Trans Am. Everyone will know what you mean, and it will be accurate.

And yes, I do correct people in the odd case where they call my T/A a firebird. Partly because it's kinda not, but mostly because, regardless of anything else, it's not just a mere "firebird", it's a Trans Am. (It's better, it's different, it's *not the same thing*)

PontiacFan

iTrader: (104)

My gawd people, get over it, move on with your life, let this thread die, ...




(Damnit, there I went replied & brought the it back to the top again, ...)

demonspeed

iTrader: (7)

But the fact is it's a Firebird Trans Am. It's a Firebird with sub model V6, Formula, and Trans Am.

Let's take something like your gun analogy, but apply it to something else... Saleen takes the Ford Mustang and does his thing. He then sells it as a Saleen Mustang. Does that no longer make it a Ford since it's got a Saleen window sticker?

So let's talk about the gun. Say the Cowboy Elite is like the Firebird Trans Am. It's still a model within the Cowboy gun line. The Warstopper comes along... Well, that'd be like a Camaro. Might be the same thing, but it's too different manufacturers with two different names.

Go to Payless with your wife/girlfriend. They have knock off brand shoes. Say something looks like a Candies or Steve Madden shoe, yet it's certainly not - nor is the price. Yet it looks so similar... so does that make it the brand name Candies or Steve Madden? Nope - It's still whatever knock off brand it is.

There is nothing wrong with calling your Trans Am a Trans Am, because that's simply what it is, but it's still a Firebird. Trans Am is easier than saying Firebird Trans Am, just as WS6 is easier than saying Trans Am WS6. Sure, it's easier for someone to understand, but that still doesn't mean it's not a Firebird (then again, just saying WS6 could be confused with the Formula as well).

HPP

Well, yes, and as I said, I'm not really arguing what is on the paper work.

My point is just that what makes a Camaro different from a Firebird, is pretty much what makes a Trans Am different from a Firebird. The only exception being what the OEM calls it internally. It's all GM. Much as I think of myself as a Pontiac guy and not a Chevy guy, it's really the same thing. Which means there is no real difference between calling a Firebird a Camaro, or calling a Trans Am a Firebird - with one exception which is exceedingly arbitrary, internal documentation (window sticker/title/etc).

I guess if the base model wasn't sold as is, it would be different. But then it would be even more irrelevant. lol But selling the base model makes it something of it's own, and the upscale models are more siblings, than anything else. Like to say, part of the Firebird family, but not a Firebird per se.

Having said all that, I will on occasion make comments along the lines of " 'Birds of a feather.." and what not.

I won't insist that there is no connection, but only that if one chooses to call a Camaro something entirely different, then the same logic should apply to the "other" cars. (which is what I said in my first post in this thread - yes it is, AND, no, it's not. lol)

Regarding the Saleen example (I always think of contacts and Saline solution when I hear his name lol), if they are Fords or not depends on a lot of things. Namely what the law says, and how much he's changed. Brabus and Ruf work on Mercedes-Benz's and Porshce's respectively and under German law are manufacturers and able to rebadge the cars entirely, because they change so much of the car that it's no longer what it was. And in that sense, the Saleen Mustangs could indeed be Saleens and *not* Ford's. And he could even (in fact probably should) call it by a different name.

But at the same time it could still be considered a Ford Mustang as well, just a professionally modified one is all. Not much different than you or I buying a stocker and making the changes. And so not a "Saleen Mustang" at all.

Part of the problem with a Mustang analogy is that the Capri is no longer around, so it doesn't fit 100%.

ActionJack

'HPP' I think we all (mostly anyhow) agree with 'DMNSPD'.

Audi and Vw share platforms but are still unique within their brands.
Porsche and VW (Cayenne and Touareg) share chasis and still are unique within their brands.

The same is true of Camaro and Firebird. They both share the same F-Body design but when it comes down to points like body panel design and interior design and such they are two unique cars though they are still a lot alike. IMO the Pontiac version has always had a nicer interior and nicer design while Chevy has maintained the thrifty aproach to provide the same product with less glitter (so to speak).

You both agree on what is important that these two cars are very similiar. But they are 2 different brands and have slight character differences to appeal to slightly different audiences.

Well that is my $0.02 for what it is worth.

demonspeed

iTrader: (7)

I think we've all been on the same page, but it's fun to play devil's advocate to keep things open minded. At least we've kept this from turning into an argument - because we're special

But I consider my SS a Camaro, and when someone asks what car I have, I say Camaro. If they think it's a V6, then fine - SS, Z28, V6 - I still have a Camaro.

But then we could say the Monte Carlo is a Grand Prix because it's on the same platform. It's GM we're talking about here... the biggest auto manufacturer who loves to use the same platform for everything.