chaman

iTrader: (5)

The fact that it takes skill DOES not make it into a sport. You can be the best at LOOSING traction (what drifting is) and still the "judge" decides against you. Its stupid and BORING. It will eventually fade away....unlike drag racing, autox....and in general REAL motorsports....

A502slo

iTrader: (4)

Well sounds like you have never tired it. We needed as much traction as we could get. The more grip you have the more angle you can get and the switch back is faster and and easier to make. We had Penske make us a triple adjustable coil over for the caddy. And spent many hours testing it out with them to get it right. So please understand what it is before you talk. We have gone to many events from Indy raceway park to ODS and Kilkare. Some old school nascar tracks-and the thoughts were the same. Untill we took the drivers out for a ride and they were so inpressed with car control and handling. If you dont like the event that is fine. I am not asking you to. I am asking to respect what people like and what they do. And as far as fading out. Well with Dodge, Pointiac and Ford to name a few getting more into the sport i dont see it going anywhere. There is a also a Z06 been made with Peneske for next year. So you have a viper, mustang, gto/Solistice, charger and now a Z06 into next year, along with a few other Domestic cars.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Done it in a dirt car while racing to a finish line in an attempt to beat my competitors. But, never on purpose in order to extract a reaction from the crowd or a group of judges.

Which proves that with enough money, you can get vendors to do just about anything.

This section is for ROAD RACING. So, I am respectfully asking that these topics be discussed elsewhere. I'm not advocating that you go away, just post this in a more appropriate forum

But mostly dominated by Japanese manufactured cars. There are a few novelties in any "sport" done in an attempt to draw a wider audience. Marketing 101 ...

To be perfectly honest, what put it over the top for me and proved in my mind drifting is an exhibition and not a real competition is when the skilled drivers began using tires that emmitted colored smoke. Now tell me that isn't "show-boating" in an attempt to draw the judge's attention and away from the "skill".

subtlez28

iTrader: (15)

SO.........Who else is for stopping the pissing match? Lets get to the TECH!

Until a drifting category is made, I was wondering about the tech side of drifitng. What mods would be done to an f-body(or CTSV, Mustang, Vette,etc)? I assume weight reduction is key, but is the car built to oversteer? I assume the front needs 2 b real dialed in. Do they intentionally put an oversized rear sway bar on? A spool is needed, right? What R the tricks?

Oh, I found z28evans on here...he is associated w Bubba Drift. I remembered reading about the Bubba Drift El Camino (actually 86 GMC Caballero w an LS1+magnacharger). I asked him to chime in on this.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Yes, he's a fountain of information.

I know those El Camino guys as well.

z28evans

iTrader: (4)

My former driver had a way of pissing people off, please don't let him influence your opinion of me.

As far as tech:
The biggest drawback with f-bodies for drifting is their lack of steering angle. More steering angle means more sideways, and you can keep from spinning as easily. It is not easy to get more steering angle due to clearences around the subframe / control arms, etc.

My Camaro (LS1 / T56 swap) not the best photo -


very built suspension:



Drifting is not for everyone, it is fun and a good way to learn car control. I auto-x & drag race as well.

James

ddnspider

iTrader: (26)

Maybe ur car isnt clean,or nice enough to actually show off?And im sorry but in FL,there are car meets on every corner down here.People hang out talk about cars setup races,etc.Domestics do have car meets too.And as far as the judging...if u ever bothered to sit down and actually watch a real even,D1 for instance,you'll hear the announcer prolli explain what the rules and things theyre judged on,ie who can keep the cleanest line,who can have the car the most sideways through a turn while staying in control.Its not just who can showoff the most.why is it that people never try something or give something new a chance?they assume because its not "hardcore muscle" it has no merit?Thats called ignorance.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

James ... I appreciate a mature post and respect what you've accomplished ...

Ignorance is lack of knowledge, not differing opinions.

Please explain to this ignorant person HOW "the cleanest line" or "the most sideways" is measured? Give it to me in measurable terms.

ddnspider

iTrader: (26)

Thankgoodness everyone isnt like you,otherwise no one would have an imagination or create things.So because you cant physically measure it, it cant exist or be shown or compared?You cant tell the difference between someone thats all over the place when theyre driving and someone whose smooth and knows what theyre doing?

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

I agree ... thank goodness no one is like me. And for what it's worth, my degree is in illustration and graphic design. So, I can be creative.

You cannot have it both ways. It's either a contest or an exhibition.

One is measured with tangible results, the other is judged.

And it's easy to see differences when the spectrum is opposite ends as you describe. Unless there is 1 stud and the rest dorks, how is the "contest" measured when there is a track full of drifting studs?

Or are the majority of the drifters dorks and therefore the judging easy?

subtlez28

iTrader: (15)

Ok, so tech is out of the question? Personal attacks should have there own sub category.....

jamesSS

as much as we like, some people will never change. some people will never give anything new a chance. thats their loss. guess the rest of us will get sideways on our own. there is no point to carry this on. anyone who wants a rush, give it a try. the rest of you carry on with your " living life a quarter mile at a time."

z28evans

iTrader: (4)

Drifting courses are made up of several turns in both directions. They can be different radiuses (radii?) and some are decreasing radius turns. Drifting follows the same line that you would for roadracing, etc. One of the Judging criteria is how close you follow the line - getting close to the Apex (Clipping point) is a must. If you run wide or miss the Apex your score is decreased.

The more angle the better. When judging the cars in tandem (two cars running at the same time) it is easy to compare the angles. When the cars are sideways next to each other (parallel) then they would be considered even. If someone has more angle they would get more points.

Speed. The faster to better. Some events use radar guns to measure entry speeds. But, when two cars are going in tandem it is easy to see the speed differences. If someone is pulling away from the other car they are going faster - more points to them.

Style. This is made up of a few different things. Being on the gas (lots of tire smoke) is good. Making a lot of corrections to your line by way of throttle or steering is a negative and deducts points.

Often Judges have a score card where they grade the different areas. Some events have it organized where each judge grades one area. Some series use a "drift box" device which measures speed and angle to give some concrete numbers. Judging in motorsport is strange and makes a lot of people uncomfortable. It also can leave room for doubt and disagreement about results. But for the most part (95%) of the time it is very obvious to those who know to score the matches. The crowds generally know who won before the judges say anything.

Drifting has a bad rap for many reasons. One of the main reasons (in my opinion) for its views are that the demographics that brought drifting into the mainstream are the same people who are often looked down apon by people of other motorsports back grounds.

FWIW - I built the el camino for auto-xing for giggles. I let a friend take it to a drift event. I didn't know what drifting was and thought that it was stupid, but i'm game for a lot of things. I had a blast watching - it is one of the most spectator friendly motorsports i have ever seen.

I plan on going to a drift event in Houston this sunday with my Camaro just for giggles. I've got some old tires and i'm going to play with throwing my car around.

I'm not doing the pro stuff anymore, it was to expensive for me, even with sponsorship help. Was fun though.

If anyone has any questions i'll try to answer them as long as things stay civil, and i have the free time.

Thanks,
James

jamesSS

^^^^^^^ very well put. thanks.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

I didn't personally attack anyone. Just illustrated the opposite ends of the spectrum as it was used as an attempt to "educate me".

Mine are 1.7 miles, 3.2 miles, 3.1 mile and 1.9 miles at a time. I plan on hitting Eagle's Canyon and Heartland Park sometime this year as well.

OK ... I can see that. I still think it's too subjective to appoint one "line" as better than the other, but if "the line" is pre-determined and established, then it is possible.

For me, this is where it falls outside of the realm of competition. The more you slide it sideways the more speed you scrub and lose time. This is where it becomes more for show than go.

Again, entry speeds can be elevated but at the cost of exit speed.

This is where we get WAY off course and judging becomes WAY too subjective. This part of drifting has been discussed over and over ... no need to do it again.

I have been a show car judge a bunch of times and it is extremely difficult to declare one car better than the next putting aside personal preference ... EXTREMELY difficult. So yes, I am uncomfortable with having my on-track performance judged rather than decided by crossing a common white line in an order.

As demonstrated in this thread and Mike's threads a while back.

Those of us in "motorsports" don't view anything that requires the man upstairs to declare a winner as a contest or a competition. We prefer to decide who wins by when we cross that white line stretched across the track. I think a lot of folks who believe the way I do take serious exception to drifting because of the venues it uses and the type folks it attracts.

Fast and Furious didn't help your cause along much either ...

James, I know you take your "sport" seriously and I very much appreciate your posting in an attempt to clarify and educate. You have done your niche proud.

If more could be like you, then maybe drifting wouldn't be looked at so negatively.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Truce ... I won't post in this drifting thread any more.

You drifters can have this thread ...

/olive branch

z28evans

iTrader: (4)

Drifting is not the fastest way around the track, you are correct -it is more show than go.

You are not alone on this, it is probably the biggest issue with drifting. Most of the time the judging is fair, but there are cases where it is definately not.

I currently mainly do drag racing, with drifting and auto-x thrown in for fun. I hope to do some track days in the future. I would really like to do some wheel-to-wheel racing (CMC or AI?), but don't have the money for it.

I was very involved with drifting for several years, and can help with any questions that anyone has.

Whistler

iTrader: (46)

How do you get more steering angle in the car?

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

Mitch, I don't think many people would disagree with you when saying that Drifting is not racing type competition. It is more of an exhibition, and there is nothing wrong with that. It takes specific technical setups and driver skills to control these vehicles, so that is one thing that it has in common with racing a vehicle.

I've seen a few drifting events, they are kind of fun to watch, especially the more powerful cars. I think we all used to enjoy doing donuts in the parking lot at some time in our youth, lol. I've seen 1000 whp Nissan Skylines roasting all four tires at the same time, that was cool to see.

One GOOD thing about drifting is that several of the 'ricer' kids now appreciate rear-wheel-drive vehicles. I'm sure all of us on this site were tired of these idiotic kids praising front-wheel-drive and how they like being the underdog. Then they realize their shitbox Civics and Integras can't drift very well (no power, no rwd) so they are building rwd cars. Some of them are even moving into domestic V8 cars because of this sport. Those are the good benefits of drifting, they indirectly educate the ricers who grew up watching F&F, thinking front-drive was cool. lol

We will not create a "Drifting Forum" here however. There really isn't enough activity here to justify it (yet?). You guys can post your drifting threads in this forum however, as long as they are technical in nature.

James, where is this Houston drifting contest at on Sunday? Time?

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

It surprised me how cheap (relative term) CMC racing really is.

I can put you in a reliable and baseline sorted 4th gen CMC car for about $10K.

I spent about $3500 this year on maintenance, registration and travel. It just doesn't get any cheaper than that ...