F-body road racing set up?
12-18-2007, 01:37 PM
#1
F-body road racing set up? So what is a good tire, suspension & brake setup for my Z28? Current mods are in sig, it has been more of a straightline car, and the suspension is stock.
Also, I've been picking up on the fact oiling could be an issue under high lateral g loads... is this something that definitely needs to be addressed early?
Primary use will be on a moderately fast road course.
Also, I've been picking up on the fact oiling could be an issue under high lateral g loads... is this something that definitely needs to be addressed early?
Primary use will be on a moderately fast road course.
12-18-2007, 03:54 PM
#2
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are you going to compete or just have open track days for fun?
you dont need to do anything first off. youd be surprised how well a 4th gen can handle with bone stock suspension. if you want to buy stuff, then koni shocks/strano springs and bars. doing that suspension is a good upgrade even if you never hit a track in your life. either swapping better pads/new rotors for brakes, or consider a C5 upgrade. brake ducts are very good on a road course.
as for oiling, i run 6qts on the street, no matter what. for road courses, fill with 7qts, and keep checking/adding throughout the day. you will burn more, but the extra quart in the pan will keep from oil starvation on high-G left turns, which is a problem with these cars. (i think its left). if you REALLY get into it, a road race baffled oil pan, or dry sump system is best.
you dont need to do anything first off. youd be surprised how well a 4th gen can handle with bone stock suspension. if you want to buy stuff, then koni shocks/strano springs and bars. doing that suspension is a good upgrade even if you never hit a track in your life. either swapping better pads/new rotors for brakes, or consider a C5 upgrade. brake ducts are very good on a road course.
as for oiling, i run 6qts on the street, no matter what. for road courses, fill with 7qts, and keep checking/adding throughout the day. you will burn more, but the extra quart in the pan will keep from oil starvation on high-G left turns, which is a problem with these cars. (i think its left). if you REALLY get into it, a road race baffled oil pan, or dry sump system is best.
12-18-2007, 08:15 PM
#3
are you going to compete or just have open track days for fun?
you dont need to do anything first off. youd be surprised how well a 4th gen can handle with bone stock suspension. if you want to buy stuff, then koni shocks/strano springs and bars. doing that suspension is a good upgrade even if you never hit a track in your life. either swapping better pads/new rotors for brakes, or consider a C5 upgrade. brake ducts are very good on a road course.
as for oiling, i run 6qts on the street, no matter what. for road courses, fill with 7qts, and keep checking/adding throughout the day. you will burn more, but the extra quart in the pan will keep from oil starvation on high-G left turns, which is a problem with these cars. (i think its left). if you REALLY get into it, a road race baffled oil pan, or dry sump system is best.
you dont need to do anything first off. youd be surprised how well a 4th gen can handle with bone stock suspension. if you want to buy stuff, then koni shocks/strano springs and bars. doing that suspension is a good upgrade even if you never hit a track in your life. either swapping better pads/new rotors for brakes, or consider a C5 upgrade. brake ducts are very good on a road course.
as for oiling, i run 6qts on the street, no matter what. for road courses, fill with 7qts, and keep checking/adding throughout the day. you will burn more, but the extra quart in the pan will keep from oil starvation on high-G left turns, which is a problem with these cars. (i think its left). if you REALLY get into it, a road race baffled oil pan, or dry sump system is best.
The 7 quarts of oil is a good idea, I'll do that when I take the camaro for a spin.
What do you recommend as far as tires on 17" SS rims? These will be 1/2 track use, 1/2 street most likely - and not my daily driver.
12-18-2007, 09:58 PM
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BFG KD for dry street/track. BFG KDW for mixed dry/wet. KDs are in my opinion the best tires next to r-compounds. falken 615s are also excellent all around tires, and fairly cheap too. look around on tirerack, check out their max performance summer catagories. (i think thats the one....just look for the top catagory) BFG KDs are there...some high end michellin, pirellis, etc. Nitto 555r (again dont quote me) have been very good street/auto/track tires. they have the softer tread compound of a DR, but stiff carcass and sidewall of thier high perf. street tires.
12-18-2007, 10:20 PM
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It's not "sharp, high-G" turns that are the problem, it's the "long, high-G" turns - the ones that can starve the pickup for multiple seconds at a time. I've run a few courses and not had a problem. If you''re really worried about it, then buy an aftermarket oil pressure gauge with idiot light and 30lb sending unit. That'll tell you if you're having trouble.
As far as brakes, get a set of Hawk HP+ or Carbotech XP8 pads. Youc an swap them at the track, or deal with slightly squeaky brakes on the street. And, run a good quality high-temp brake fluid, like Wilwood 570.
One of the best AND cheapest tires is the Kumho MX. The 275 is fine.
And, if you're planning on doing it often, get a roll bar. Weld in is best, but a bolt in may save your butt!
As far as brakes, get a set of Hawk HP+ or Carbotech XP8 pads. Youc an swap them at the track, or deal with slightly squeaky brakes on the street. And, run a good quality high-temp brake fluid, like Wilwood 570.
One of the best AND cheapest tires is the Kumho MX. The 275 is fine.
And, if you're planning on doing it often, get a roll bar. Weld in is best, but a bolt in may save your butt!
12-18-2007, 10:23 PM
#6
You can go pretty fast in a stock f-body. My F stock setup 99 Formula has seen many laps at TWS. If you have not had much experience on a road course/auto-x, you don't need to upgrade the car all at once. Stock suspension is just fine, and the stock brakes work OK if you use good pads (Hawk HT-10, HT12, DTC-70, Carbotech XP10, XP12, etc).
Good, real track pads plus good fluid will get you a long way. I would strongly suggest working on improving your skills before you work on the car. HP+ works OK, but it isn't a real track pad. It will wear VERY quickly if you get it too hot (don't ask how I know...). Works good for auto-x, but not really up to track abuse.
Good, real track pads plus good fluid will get you a long way. I would strongly suggest working on improving your skills before you work on the car. HP+ works OK, but it isn't a real track pad. It will wear VERY quickly if you get it too hot (don't ask how I know...). Works good for auto-x, but not really up to track abuse.
12-21-2007, 07:14 PM
#7
Hey General. Looks like you may already have some experience on track given you have an M3.
I've run about 14 track days on my stock 02 Z28. (Been running track days/schools/time trials since 88)
IMHO
For suspension:
The stock shocks are terrible. The car just kind of flops over when weight is transfered side to side. I was running Time Trials in a stock class so all I could do were shocks and tires. I put Koni Double adjustables up front and single adjustable in the rear. Great improvement even with the stock springs.
For tires I run Kuhmo 710's. If driven smoothly the car doesn't really eat up tires. Street tires are not much fun on the track.(alignment with as much neg camber as possible). Lots of guys run Toyo RA1's around here as a dual purpose limited street tire. As in you'll be fine in the rain. My friend runs his 98 M3 all summer on those.
Brakes: As mentioned earlier a Hawk racepad is good. Good High temp new brake fluid.I run Porterfield R4's front and R4S on rear. Careful not to get the same pads (race) all around. I had rear axle tramp big time when running R4 pads all around. I backed off the rears to the hi-po street pad and all was good.
These cars need brake ducts. I bought a nice stainless setup online that mounts were the fogs are (my car didn't have them anyways). I also installed stainless brake lines to replace the rubber. Much better feel. Without the ducts the brakes fade after a few hard laps. With ducts no issues in 30 minute sessions of hard use.
Motor/mechanical: I ran an extra quart of oil and mixed in 2 quarts of mobil 1 15-50 to the 5-30. Didn't have any problems. As mentioned, the oil pressure gauge is easy and you can put it in an a pillar pod.
Power steering is the only issue I've had. The stock fluid with stock cooler doesn't cut it on the track. I swapped the fluid to royal purple synthetic and keep an eye on the fluid.
In a car like yours remember slow into the corner, hit the apex clean and tight and get on the power as early as possible. Doesn't look as look but is way faster and alot easier on the car.
If you really get into it get a bar/belts and seat. Safety first. That is a fast car.
That's alot more than 2 cents
hope it helps. Feel free to PM.
I've run about 14 track days on my stock 02 Z28. (Been running track days/schools/time trials since 88)
IMHO
For suspension:
The stock shocks are terrible. The car just kind of flops over when weight is transfered side to side. I was running Time Trials in a stock class so all I could do were shocks and tires. I put Koni Double adjustables up front and single adjustable in the rear. Great improvement even with the stock springs.
For tires I run Kuhmo 710's. If driven smoothly the car doesn't really eat up tires. Street tires are not much fun on the track.(alignment with as much neg camber as possible). Lots of guys run Toyo RA1's around here as a dual purpose limited street tire. As in you'll be fine in the rain. My friend runs his 98 M3 all summer on those.
Brakes: As mentioned earlier a Hawk racepad is good. Good High temp new brake fluid.I run Porterfield R4's front and R4S on rear. Careful not to get the same pads (race) all around. I had rear axle tramp big time when running R4 pads all around. I backed off the rears to the hi-po street pad and all was good.
These cars need brake ducts. I bought a nice stainless setup online that mounts were the fogs are (my car didn't have them anyways). I also installed stainless brake lines to replace the rubber. Much better feel. Without the ducts the brakes fade after a few hard laps. With ducts no issues in 30 minute sessions of hard use.
Motor/mechanical: I ran an extra quart of oil and mixed in 2 quarts of mobil 1 15-50 to the 5-30. Didn't have any problems. As mentioned, the oil pressure gauge is easy and you can put it in an a pillar pod.
Power steering is the only issue I've had. The stock fluid with stock cooler doesn't cut it on the track. I swapped the fluid to royal purple synthetic and keep an eye on the fluid.
In a car like yours remember slow into the corner, hit the apex clean and tight and get on the power as early as possible. Doesn't look as look but is way faster and alot easier on the car.
If you really get into it get a bar/belts and seat. Safety first. That is a fast car.
That's alot more than 2 cents
hope it helps. Feel free to PM. Last edited by SHELBYGLHS; 12-21-2007 at 07:19 PM.
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12-22-2007, 04:57 PM
#8
SHELBYGLHS - thanks for the info! My application, at least to start, will just be running hot laps for time, several at a time, probably never more than 15 minutes without a break. I like your ideas on the brakes pads. Adding an extra quart + of oil sounds like a no brainer too.... And I'll probably change the power streeing fluid.
Two questions...
1) How much will I have to invest suspension-wise, to get my handling comparable to the stock M3 - that car is amazing on a track. Do you see competently set up F-bodies hanging with M3s on moderately fast road courses (drivers being equal)?
2) For tires, I have almost brand new Kumho Ecsta SPTs (275/40/17) on the front and Nitto DRs on the back. Are the Kumho's good enough that I could just buy a pair for the rears to swap out the DRs, or should I just bite the bullet and buy 4 new tires all the way around. I understand that there are many options better than the Kumho, but are my Kumho's at least servicable - or more or less junk for road racing.
Two questions...
1) How much will I have to invest suspension-wise, to get my handling comparable to the stock M3 - that car is amazing on a track. Do you see competently set up F-bodies hanging with M3s on moderately fast road courses (drivers being equal)?
2) For tires, I have almost brand new Kumho Ecsta SPTs (275/40/17) on the front and Nitto DRs on the back. Are the Kumho's good enough that I could just buy a pair for the rears to swap out the DRs, or should I just bite the bullet and buy 4 new tires all the way around. I understand that there are many options better than the Kumho, but are my Kumho's at least servicable - or more or less junk for road racing.
12-22-2007, 08:01 PM
#9
M3 ...
An M3 is a very forgiving ride. It will allow a mediocre driver to look like Schumacher's love child.
But if you get a decent set of springs and shocks and stiffen up the suspension P/U points, you will give a decent M3 driver fits.
Tires ...
Buy another set of Nitto DRs and run them. Used to do it all the time. Just got to air them up to keep the sidewall from rolling too bad.
An M3 is a very forgiving ride. It will allow a mediocre driver to look like Schumacher's love child.
But if you get a decent set of springs and shocks and stiffen up the suspension P/U points, you will give a decent M3 driver fits.
Tires ...
Buy another set of Nitto DRs and run them. Used to do it all the time. Just got to air them up to keep the sidewall from rolling too bad.
12-23-2007, 04:26 PM
#10
I can't speak to the Nittos or Street Kuhmos as I have never used them, sorry.
I don't really mess around with street tires. If you can swing it, go with dot race tires. I want to be able to get the most out of the car. My car is very neutral with 265-50-16's kuhmo 710's (had to use stock wheels in the SS class). On street tires (275 -40-17 BFG KDWS) I get a bit too much overstreer and makes it tough to put the stock power down.
On open track days (test and tune) at NHIS (look it up, it's short and tight) I would walk away from my friends 98 M3 (suspension modified, RA1 Toyo's, excellent driver). Walk away like pull a half lap then let him catch up.
After I was done testing, he left his race rubber on and I put on streets, He was a tiny bit faster overall. Quicker in the tight stuff but I couldn't quite make it up on the short straights.
The E36 M3 has less power than the E46. The stock E46 M3 is very soft and has alot of body roll on the track. The E46 to be fast on the road course really needs a suspension kit. (They look awesome with a great suspension and are fast)
I have run a few BMW events and instructed one event in New Hamphire. I took the Camaro to that one event and passed everyone in the instructor group except a completely gutted full on race E36. Actually he never passed me as we were not close to each other in the run session.
Shocks, springs, sway bars, and tires the camaro will actually destroy the stock E46 drivers being equal. Other guys on this site or other ls1 sites have much more info on further modifying these cars. My mods are minimal but effective. Strano Parts seem to be popular on the message boards.
I have a modified Shelby GLHS that is my track car. My Z28 really is just a street car. (It becomes a track car when my turbo blows up!!!)
Your car, with that kind of power is going to be a blast on the track.
Konis, 1LE springs and 1LE sway bars would be a good package. I'm sure others on the site can recommend something better.
Sorry if that was a bit long winded. I highly recommend the konis. I say do springs too because you've already removed them to do the shocks. I didn't do springs because I wanted to Time Trial the car. It will have springs and sub frame connectors soon though.
Post what mods you do and how you like it on the track.
I try to use the car as a tool to learn how to drive better. If it has decent tires, brakes that are good and don't fade, and is solid mechanically (including doing a nut and bolt check to be sure everything is torqued to spec) then you can just concentrate on driving not worrying about the car so much. Although be sure to check the gauges on the straightaways
I don't really mess around with street tires. If you can swing it, go with dot race tires. I want to be able to get the most out of the car. My car is very neutral with 265-50-16's kuhmo 710's (had to use stock wheels in the SS class). On street tires (275 -40-17 BFG KDWS) I get a bit too much overstreer and makes it tough to put the stock power down.
On open track days (test and tune) at NHIS (look it up, it's short and tight) I would walk away from my friends 98 M3 (suspension modified, RA1 Toyo's, excellent driver). Walk away like pull a half lap then let him catch up.
After I was done testing, he left his race rubber on and I put on streets, He was a tiny bit faster overall. Quicker in the tight stuff but I couldn't quite make it up on the short straights.
The E36 M3 has less power than the E46. The stock E46 M3 is very soft and has alot of body roll on the track. The E46 to be fast on the road course really needs a suspension kit. (They look awesome with a great suspension and are fast)
I have run a few BMW events and instructed one event in New Hamphire. I took the Camaro to that one event and passed everyone in the instructor group except a completely gutted full on race E36. Actually he never passed me as we were not close to each other in the run session.
Shocks, springs, sway bars, and tires the camaro will actually destroy the stock E46 drivers being equal. Other guys on this site or other ls1 sites have much more info on further modifying these cars. My mods are minimal but effective. Strano Parts seem to be popular on the message boards.
I have a modified Shelby GLHS that is my track car. My Z28 really is just a street car. (It becomes a track car when my turbo blows up!!!)
Your car, with that kind of power is going to be a blast on the track.
Konis, 1LE springs and 1LE sway bars would be a good package. I'm sure others on the site can recommend something better.
Sorry if that was a bit long winded. I highly recommend the konis. I say do springs too because you've already removed them to do the shocks. I didn't do springs because I wanted to Time Trial the car. It will have springs and sub frame connectors soon though.
Post what mods you do and how you like it on the track.
I try to use the car as a tool to learn how to drive better. If it has decent tires, brakes that are good and don't fade, and is solid mechanically (including doing a nut and bolt check to be sure everything is torqued to spec) then you can just concentrate on driving not worrying about the car so much. Although be sure to check the gauges on the straightaways
12-24-2007, 09:03 AM
#11
M3 ...
An M3 is a very forgiving ride. It will allow a mediocre driver to look like Schumacher's love child.
But if you get a decent set of springs and shocks and stiffen up the suspension P/U points, you will give a decent M3 driver fits.
Tires ...
Buy another set of Nitto DRs and run them. Used to do it all the time. Just got to air them up to keep the sidewall from rolling too bad.
An M3 is a very forgiving ride. It will allow a mediocre driver to look like Schumacher's love child.
But if you get a decent set of springs and shocks and stiffen up the suspension P/U points, you will give a decent M3 driver fits.
Tires ...
Buy another set of Nitto DRs and run them. Used to do it all the time. Just got to air them up to keep the sidewall from rolling too bad.
So the Nitto DR sidewall isn't too soft? What kind of pressure do you recommend, 32 psi or so?
12-24-2007, 09:07 AM
#12
I can't speak to the Nittos or Street Kuhmos as I have never used them, sorry.
I don't really mess around with street tires. If you can swing it, go with dot race tires. I want to be able to get the most out of the car. My car is very neutral with 265-50-16's kuhmo 710's (had to use stock wheels in the SS class). On street tires (275 -40-17 BFG KDWS) I get a bit too much overstreer and makes it tough to put the stock power down.
On open track days (test and tune) at NHIS (look it up, it's short and tight) I would walk away from my friends 98 M3 (suspension modified, RA1 Toyo's, excellent driver). Walk away like pull a half lap then let him catch up.
After I was done testing, he left his race rubber on and I put on streets, He was a tiny bit faster overall. Quicker in the tight stuff but I couldn't quite make it up on the short straights.
The E36 M3 has less power than the E46. The stock E46 M3 is very soft and has alot of body roll on the track. The E46 to be fast on the road course really needs a suspension kit. (They look awesome with a great suspension and are fast)
I have run a few BMW events and instructed one event in New Hamphire. I took the Camaro to that one event and passed everyone in the instructor group except a completely gutted full on race E36. Actually he never passed me as we were not close to each other in the run session.
Shocks, springs, sway bars, and tires the camaro will actually destroy the stock E46 drivers being equal. Other guys on this site or other ls1 sites have much more info on further modifying these cars. My mods are minimal but effective. Strano Parts seem to be popular on the message boards.
I have a modified Shelby GLHS that is my track car. My Z28 really is just a street car. (It becomes a track car when my turbo blows up!!!)
Your car, with that kind of power is going to be a blast on the track.
Konis, 1LE springs and 1LE sway bars would be a good package. I'm sure others on the site can recommend something better.
Sorry if that was a bit long winded. I highly recommend the konis. I say do springs too because you've already removed them to do the shocks. I didn't do springs because I wanted to Time Trial the car. It will have springs and sub frame connectors soon though.
Post what mods you do and how you like it on the track.
I try to use the car as a tool to learn how to drive better. If it has decent tires, brakes that are good and don't fade, and is solid mechanically (including doing a nut and bolt check to be sure everything is torqued to spec) then you can just concentrate on driving not worrying about the car so much. Although be sure to check the gauges on the straightaways
I don't really mess around with street tires. If you can swing it, go with dot race tires. I want to be able to get the most out of the car. My car is very neutral with 265-50-16's kuhmo 710's (had to use stock wheels in the SS class). On street tires (275 -40-17 BFG KDWS) I get a bit too much overstreer and makes it tough to put the stock power down.
On open track days (test and tune) at NHIS (look it up, it's short and tight) I would walk away from my friends 98 M3 (suspension modified, RA1 Toyo's, excellent driver). Walk away like pull a half lap then let him catch up.
After I was done testing, he left his race rubber on and I put on streets, He was a tiny bit faster overall. Quicker in the tight stuff but I couldn't quite make it up on the short straights.
The E36 M3 has less power than the E46. The stock E46 M3 is very soft and has alot of body roll on the track. The E46 to be fast on the road course really needs a suspension kit. (They look awesome with a great suspension and are fast)
I have run a few BMW events and instructed one event in New Hamphire. I took the Camaro to that one event and passed everyone in the instructor group except a completely gutted full on race E36. Actually he never passed me as we were not close to each other in the run session.
Shocks, springs, sway bars, and tires the camaro will actually destroy the stock E46 drivers being equal. Other guys on this site or other ls1 sites have much more info on further modifying these cars. My mods are minimal but effective. Strano Parts seem to be popular on the message boards.
I have a modified Shelby GLHS that is my track car. My Z28 really is just a street car. (It becomes a track car when my turbo blows up!!!)
Your car, with that kind of power is going to be a blast on the track.
Konis, 1LE springs and 1LE sway bars would be a good package. I'm sure others on the site can recommend something better.
Sorry if that was a bit long winded. I highly recommend the konis. I say do springs too because you've already removed them to do the shocks. I didn't do springs because I wanted to Time Trial the car. It will have springs and sub frame connectors soon though.
Post what mods you do and how you like it on the track.
I try to use the car as a tool to learn how to drive better. If it has decent tires, brakes that are good and don't fade, and is solid mechanically (including doing a nut and bolt check to be sure everything is torqued to spec) then you can just concentrate on driving not worrying about the car so much. Although be sure to check the gauges on the straightaways
Thanks, lots of good info! I think I'll just add some oil, adjust the tires pressure and then take it out as is for starters... I'll get some lap times and see how they compare to the M3. Maybe after Christmas I'll get some better brakes, shocks and springs... this is going to be way more fun than drag racing...
12-24-2007, 09:09 AM
#13
Been a while, but I seem to recall 32-34 cold. Watch the center of the tires. About 50% of the center of the tire will wear a lot faster than the outer edges. And they do not like the cold ...
It's not the best ire, because of the softer sidewall. But when you get into 35 and 40 series tires, there isn't much sidewall to worry about.
It's not the best ire, because of the softer sidewall. But when you get into 35 and 40 series tires, there isn't much sidewall to worry about.
12-24-2007, 09:56 AM
#14
I envy you guys down south. We've got 2 feet of snow here and no racing going on.
Enjoy the winter. I better get my skis out...
SMG tranny on the bimmer, that must be fun on track. So that means no heel and toe necessary, it matches revs on downshifts right? You may want to practice heel and toe braking in the camaro before you hit the track. The stock pedals are spaced pretty well for it.
Enjoy the winter. I better get my skis out...
SMG tranny on the bimmer, that must be fun on track. So that means no heel and toe necessary, it matches revs on downshifts right? You may want to practice heel and toe braking in the camaro before you hit the track. The stock pedals are spaced pretty well for it.
12-24-2007, 03:21 PM
#16
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Mitch, you actually ran DRs? They do stick in the corners but feel terrible doing it. In fact, I do have some for the drag strip but don't run them on the street much because I don't like the cornering feel.
IMO, the BFG KDW is a great all-around performance tire and would serve you well. I liked them a lot better than the GS-D3 I have now.
IMO, the BFG KDW is a great all-around performance tire and would serve you well. I liked them a lot better than the GS-D3 I have now.
12-25-2007, 07:00 PM
#18
I envy you guys down south. We've got 2 feet of snow here and no racing going on.
Enjoy the winter. I better get my skis out...
SMG tranny on the bimmer, that must be fun on track. So that means no heel and toe necessary, it matches revs on downshifts right? You may want to practice heel and toe braking in the camaro before you hit the track. The stock pedals are spaced pretty well for it.
Enjoy the winter. I better get my skis out...
SMG tranny on the bimmer, that must be fun on track. So that means no heel and toe necessary, it matches revs on downshifts right? You may want to practice heel and toe braking in the camaro before you hit the track. The stock pedals are spaced pretty well for it.
12-26-2007, 01:30 PM
#19
Just did a search on bimmerforums.com.
Seems like these guys also have some camaros.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=896456
It looks like a nice combo to have.
My "BMW" is my wife's 05 Mini Cooper S.
Seems like these guys also have some camaros.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=896456
It looks like a nice combo to have.
My "BMW" is my wife's 05 Mini Cooper S.
