Installed Monster clutch and new problems arose
I've never even used a mity vac, but usually our cylinders only take about 5-10 minutes at the most to bleed. Most of the time with the f-body kits they can be bench bleed and installed with no further bleeding at all.
If not bench bled, bleed it the old fashioned way: loosen bleeder, push pedal, tighten bleeder, let pedal up, repeat. Keeping the resevoir full during the process. Do this 4 or 5 times and you should be good to go with a few pumps of the pedal.
Did you measure for a shim at the tob? Is the slave new?
We came out with our cylinder to prevent the problems you're having....if you're not experiencing any fluid leaks, disconnect the line at the slave and then try to press the pedal BY HAND. It should be rock solid, if any air is present in the master or line the pedal will have a slightly spongy feel. Don't press too hard because you don't want to damage the cylinder.
The only other thing I can think of that would cause a "dropped" pedal during power shifting only is a slipping clutch which creates excessive heat transfering directly to the fluid through the slave. We've had awesome results with the monster stuff and I doubt that could be the problem but its worth mentioning anyway.
If not bench bled, bleed it the old fashioned way: loosen bleeder, push pedal, tighten bleeder, let pedal up, repeat. Keeping the resevoir full during the process. Do this 4 or 5 times and you should be good to go with a few pumps of the pedal.
Did you measure for a shim at the tob? Is the slave new?
We came out with our cylinder to prevent the problems you're having....if you're not experiencing any fluid leaks, disconnect the line at the slave and then try to press the pedal BY HAND. It should be rock solid, if any air is present in the master or line the pedal will have a slightly spongy feel. Don't press too hard because you don't want to damage the cylinder.
The only other thing I can think of that would cause a "dropped" pedal during power shifting only is a slipping clutch which creates excessive heat transfering directly to the fluid through the slave. We've had awesome results with the monster stuff and I doubt that could be the problem but its worth mentioning anyway.
I've never even used a mity vac, but usually our cylinders only take about 5-10 minutes at the most to bleed. Most of the time with the f-body kits they can be bench bleed and installed with no further bleeding at all.
If not bench bled, bleed it the old fashioned way: loosen bleeder, push pedal, tighten bleeder, let pedal up, repeat. Keeping the resevoir full during the process. Do this 4 or 5 times and you should be good to go with a few pumps of the pedal.
Did you measure for a shim at the tob? Is the slave new?
We came out with our cylinder to prevent the problems you're having....if you're not experiencing any fluid leaks, disconnect the line at the slave and then try to press the pedal BY HAND. It should be rock solid, if any air is present in the master or line the pedal will have a slightly spongy feel. Don't press too hard because you don't want to damage the cylinder.
The only other thing I can think of that would cause a "dropped" pedal during power shifting only is a slipping clutch which creates excessive heat transfering directly to the fluid through the slave. We've had awesome results with the monster stuff and I doubt that could be the problem but its worth mentioning anyway.
If not bench bled, bleed it the old fashioned way: loosen bleeder, push pedal, tighten bleeder, let pedal up, repeat. Keeping the resevoir full during the process. Do this 4 or 5 times and you should be good to go with a few pumps of the pedal.
Did you measure for a shim at the tob? Is the slave new?
We came out with our cylinder to prevent the problems you're having....if you're not experiencing any fluid leaks, disconnect the line at the slave and then try to press the pedal BY HAND. It should be rock solid, if any air is present in the master or line the pedal will have a slightly spongy feel. Don't press too hard because you don't want to damage the cylinder.
The only other thing I can think of that would cause a "dropped" pedal during power shifting only is a slipping clutch which creates excessive heat transfering directly to the fluid through the slave. We've had awesome results with the monster stuff and I doubt that could be the problem but its worth mentioning anyway.
I've never even used a mity vac, but usually our cylinders only take about 5-10 minutes at the most to bleed. Most of the time with the f-body kits they can be bench bleed and installed with no further bleeding at all.
If not bench bled, bleed it the old fashioned way: loosen bleeder, push pedal, tighten bleeder, let pedal up, repeat. Keeping the resevoir full during the process. Do this 4 or 5 times and you should be good to go with a few pumps of the pedal.
Did you measure for a shim at the tob? Is the slave new?
We came out with our cylinder to prevent the problems you're having....if you're not experiencing any fluid leaks, disconnect the line at the slave and then try to press the pedal BY HAND. It should be rock solid, if any air is present in the master or line the pedal will have a slightly spongy feel. Don't press too hard because you don't want to damage the cylinder.
The only other thing I can think of that would cause a "dropped" pedal during power shifting only is a slipping clutch which creates excessive heat transfering directly to the fluid through the slave. We've had awesome results with the monster stuff and I doubt that could be the problem but its worth mentioning anyway.
If not bench bled, bleed it the old fashioned way: loosen bleeder, push pedal, tighten bleeder, let pedal up, repeat. Keeping the resevoir full during the process. Do this 4 or 5 times and you should be good to go with a few pumps of the pedal.
Did you measure for a shim at the tob? Is the slave new?
We came out with our cylinder to prevent the problems you're having....if you're not experiencing any fluid leaks, disconnect the line at the slave and then try to press the pedal BY HAND. It should be rock solid, if any air is present in the master or line the pedal will have a slightly spongy feel. Don't press too hard because you don't want to damage the cylinder.
The only other thing I can think of that would cause a "dropped" pedal during power shifting only is a slipping clutch which creates excessive heat transfering directly to the fluid through the slave. We've had awesome results with the monster stuff and I doubt that could be the problem but its worth mentioning anyway.
I will try what you say about disconnecting the slave and checking the pedal pressure. Also, while it's separated, I want to try and vacuum bleed the master alone and see if I still get bubbles. If not then I figure the problem is in the slave or the connection to the slave.
The slave is brand new and was replaced with the clutch. The instructions from Monster specifically say not to use a shim and I called to confirm before reinstalling the trans.
I bought the Tick master because the new clutch wasn't disengaging with all the way and it was very hard to get it in gear. No amount of bleeding seemed to help, but the stock master that I had in the car had worked with fine with my Spec clutch. Once I installed the Tick unit it seemed to work fine after just being bench bled until the powershifting problem was noticed (after break in).
I agree that it's probably not the clutch, and it's very possible that my new slave is N/G or that there might be a problem with the seal at the connection that's causing it to suck air under vacuum, but not leak fluid.
I'll try a couple things and let you guys know how they go. So far I've had no luck locating a pressure bleeder. Does anyone know how expensive they are or if it's the kind of thing you can rent at a local auto parts store?
Thanks!
OK, here is what I try and tell others that have similar problems, and is very easy to do, to try and find out if you have a hydraulic issue/tranny issue or clutch issue.
What gear is this happening in? All, or just 3rd/4th?
If just 3rd/4th, do this:
Go out, SLOWLY bring your car up to speed, shift into 2nd, NORMALLY, wait a few seconds, and now that you have been in 2nd gear for a few seconds, floor it, and grab 3rd, hard. DO NOT TRY to go to 4th. Slow down, and repeat @ 5 times. Each time, you want to wait a few seconds or so, BEFORE you try and grab 3rd, but 3rd only.
Reason being is, if you are able to grab 3rd with this method with no problems, I would say that:
Your MC or slave is either faulty or you have air in teh system.
Why?
Well, when you are racing from a light, and after repeated shifts, the pedal can go soft, as the systme has air or teh MC/Slave could be bad. But, if you take it easy, and just try and grab one gear at a time, and after each time, allow the fluid to "settle" before you grab another gear, it can tell you that the trans is fine, and you can look at other.
Now, if you are able to do this, it can also help eliminate a possible clutch problem as well. Now, I am not saying that it will eliminate teh clutch 100%, but pretty close.
But make sure you do this method @ 5 times or more to get a baseline. Say teh 1st time it works, but 2nd time is does not. Could be you just missed a gear, follow me? So, by doing this numerous times, it helps eliminate other variables.
Now, if it does it in ALL gears, like going from 1st to 2nd, this happens, then don't even bother with this method.
Without having to reread all teh posts again, how old is MC? Slave?
What gear is this happening in? All, or just 3rd/4th?
If just 3rd/4th, do this:
Go out, SLOWLY bring your car up to speed, shift into 2nd, NORMALLY, wait a few seconds, and now that you have been in 2nd gear for a few seconds, floor it, and grab 3rd, hard. DO NOT TRY to go to 4th. Slow down, and repeat @ 5 times. Each time, you want to wait a few seconds or so, BEFORE you try and grab 3rd, but 3rd only.
Reason being is, if you are able to grab 3rd with this method with no problems, I would say that:
Your MC or slave is either faulty or you have air in teh system.
Why?
Well, when you are racing from a light, and after repeated shifts, the pedal can go soft, as the systme has air or teh MC/Slave could be bad. But, if you take it easy, and just try and grab one gear at a time, and after each time, allow the fluid to "settle" before you grab another gear, it can tell you that the trans is fine, and you can look at other.
Now, if you are able to do this, it can also help eliminate a possible clutch problem as well. Now, I am not saying that it will eliminate teh clutch 100%, but pretty close.
But make sure you do this method @ 5 times or more to get a baseline. Say teh 1st time it works, but 2nd time is does not. Could be you just missed a gear, follow me? So, by doing this numerous times, it helps eliminate other variables.
Now, if it does it in ALL gears, like going from 1st to 2nd, this happens, then don't even bother with this method.
Without having to reread all teh posts again, how old is MC? Slave?
Everything was replaced together (new slave, new Tick master, new Monster clutch). They've got the 500 break-in miles on them. It does it in every gear, so it's clearly a hydraulic issue of some sort. Unplugging the master line and pushing the pedal/running the Mity Vac could help diagnose a faulty master. If it's fine, my next guess would be to check out the slave. We've bled this thing forever using both the traditional method and the Mity Vac to no avail. The master was also bench bled before being installed, but that doesn't necessarily help completely if the slave was new with no fluid in it.
Between the two of us, we've installed and diagnosed about a million different LS1 clutches/hydraulics and issues. SRZ also rebuilds our T56s, so we definitely aren't new at this. It's a bitch when everything clutch related is literally brand new.
Between the two of us, we've installed and diagnosed about a million different LS1 clutches/hydraulics and issues. SRZ also rebuilds our T56s, so we definitely aren't new at this. It's a bitch when everything clutch related is literally brand new.
Last edited by PewterScreaminMach; Sep 1, 2009 at 02:24 PM.
Yeah, like PSM said, it does it in every gear and the master and slave are both brand new. Obviously a new part can still be bad, and if I had to guess I'd say the slave. I'm gonna go try a few things now and I'll report back.
Just something else I've been thinking about:
There's alot of people thinking it's air in the line due to a bleeding problem. Air in the line definitely gets indicated by a "soft" pedal. However, when there's air in the line the idea is that the air gets compressed, keeping the clutch from fully disengaging. It can also cause the pedal to feel soft. Now in my case, I push in the clutch pedal on hard shifts and the trans goes into the next gear without any problems. This tells me that the clutch is probably disengaging. Now, after the gear change I let off the clutch pedal, but it hangs on the floor for a second before returning and the engine bounces off the limiter. Now, the pedal hanging has people thinking it's air in the line, but since the engine is going off the limiter, that tells me that the clutch hasn't rengaged. If it was just air compressing then wouldn't the pressure plate keep the clutch engaged or re engage it like normal after the air in the line was compressed?
Another thing I want to check is if it the problem occurs on hard upshifts that don't occur at high rpm. I'll let you guys know.
There's alot of people thinking it's air in the line due to a bleeding problem. Air in the line definitely gets indicated by a "soft" pedal. However, when there's air in the line the idea is that the air gets compressed, keeping the clutch from fully disengaging. It can also cause the pedal to feel soft. Now in my case, I push in the clutch pedal on hard shifts and the trans goes into the next gear without any problems. This tells me that the clutch is probably disengaging. Now, after the gear change I let off the clutch pedal, but it hangs on the floor for a second before returning and the engine bounces off the limiter. Now, the pedal hanging has people thinking it's air in the line, but since the engine is going off the limiter, that tells me that the clutch hasn't rengaged. If it was just air compressing then wouldn't the pressure plate keep the clutch engaged or re engage it like normal after the air in the line was compressed?
Another thing I want to check is if it the problem occurs on hard upshifts that don't occur at high rpm. I'll let you guys know.
Ok, I disconnected the master from the slave. The pedal is rock hard and doesn't move at all. Also, I have the vacuum pump on it and I haven't gotten a single air bubble yet. I don't see anything wrong with the fitting, but it's hard to see the slave end. I'm gonna clean it up and reconnect it and see the happenes.
Ok, the master is still separated from the slave and I'm starting to get a couple air bubbles coming out. Not as much as it was before, but some.
Still hooked up and still getting bubbles out. The vacuum had dropped to about 11 so I pumped it back to 12 and a couple more bubbles came out. I'm going to disconnect the vacuum and hook the slave back up and take it for a quick drive.
Ok, the master is still separated from the slave and I'm starting to get a couple air bubbles coming out. Not as much as it was before, but some.
Still hooked up and still getting bubbles out. The vacuum had dropped to about 11 so I pumped it back to 12 and a couple more bubbles came out. I'm going to disconnect the vacuum and hook the slave back up and take it for a quick drive.
Last edited by ScreaminRedZ; Sep 1, 2009 at 04:48 PM.
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Just as stated earlier, if you disconnect the line from the slave and the master is rock solid when you attempt to press the clutch pedal down, then your master is fine. If it had air, the pedal would be spongy and you would be able to press down till the air was compressed. Then you know the issue is in the slave or something else not hydraulic related.
When you installed the clutch did you check the clearance between the tob and pp for a shim. I know Monster states that thier clutches don't require a shim but I have installed quite a few and I have installed shims with all of them. I have seen .25" of gap which is quite a lot without a shim.
I just measured a new gm slave and it appears to have about .950" of travel on the piston/tob. If you have .25" of gap that would only leave you with .700" of travel at the slave. Could it be possible that with the increased fluid displacement of our cylinder along with an excessive gap that you could actually be maxing out the stroke of the slave and pulling air in from that point? That may also make the tob hang up and not return as it should causing your pedal not to return and the clutch to have a prolonged dissengagement...
Thats just a thought...does the air bubbles introduce theirself only when you pump the pedal? Just curious as I have never used a mity vac and I don't really know the procedure.
Since you state that the engine bumps the rev limiter even when the pedal is released and the gear is selected would make me think that the pressure plate isn't returning for some odd reason. With the spring under the dash removed the only thing that returns the pedal with our cylinder is the pp springs. Unless there was a severe amount of air in the system, the pedal should come up with our cylinder.
If our master is adjusted to flow so much fluid that the pp is becoming inverted or over extended it could possibly hang up as well causing the pedal not to return and the clutch would continue to be dissengaged during that time until the pp becomes un-hung.
Its very strange that you say the clutch seems to still be dissengaged after the pedal is released. That would definately be something going on with the pressure plate and that would also be why the pedal doesn't return.
I just measured a new gm slave and it appears to have about .950" of travel on the piston/tob. If you have .25" of gap that would only leave you with .700" of travel at the slave. Could it be possible that with the increased fluid displacement of our cylinder along with an excessive gap that you could actually be maxing out the stroke of the slave and pulling air in from that point? That may also make the tob hang up and not return as it should causing your pedal not to return and the clutch to have a prolonged dissengagement...
Thats just a thought...does the air bubbles introduce theirself only when you pump the pedal? Just curious as I have never used a mity vac and I don't really know the procedure.
Since you state that the engine bumps the rev limiter even when the pedal is released and the gear is selected would make me think that the pressure plate isn't returning for some odd reason. With the spring under the dash removed the only thing that returns the pedal with our cylinder is the pp springs. Unless there was a severe amount of air in the system, the pedal should come up with our cylinder.
If our master is adjusted to flow so much fluid that the pp is becoming inverted or over extended it could possibly hang up as well causing the pedal not to return and the clutch would continue to be dissengaged during that time until the pp becomes un-hung.
Its very strange that you say the clutch seems to still be dissengaged after the pedal is released. That would definately be something going on with the pressure plate and that would also be why the pedal doesn't return.
Just as stated earlier, if you disconnect the line from the slave and the master is rock solid when you attempt to press the clutch pedal down, then your master is fine. If it had air, the pedal would be spongy and you would be able to press down till the air was compressed. Then you know the issue is in the slave or something else not hydraulic related.
I hear ya on that. And I understand what your sayig, but the slave is still part of the hydrolics, right. There is fluid in it, and if there is the littlest air bubble in it then youll have issues, Right. And whats the difference in using the mighty vac and pressure bleeding it.
Just as stated earlier, if you disconnect the line from the slave and the master is rock solid when you attempt to press the clutch pedal down, then your master is fine. If it had air, the pedal would be spongy and you would be able to press down till the air was compressed. Then you know the issue is in the slave or something else not hydraulic related.
When you installed the clutch did you check the clearance between the tob and pp for a shim. I know Monster states that thier clutches don't require a shim but I have installed quite a few and I have installed shims with all of them. I have seen .25" of gap which is quite a lot without a shim.
I just measured a new gm slave and it appears to have about .950" of travel on the piston/tob. If you have .25" of gap that would only leave you with .700" of travel at the slave. Could it be possible that with the increased fluid displacement of our cylinder along with an excessive gap that you could actually be maxing out the stroke of the slave and pulling air in from that point? That may also make the tob hang up and not return as it should causing your pedal not to return and the clutch to have a prolonged dissengagement...
Thats just a thought...does the air bubbles introduce theirself only when you pump the pedal? Just curious as I have never used a mity vac and I don't really know the procedure.
Since you state that the engine bumps the rev limiter even when the pedal is released and the gear is selected would make me think that the pressure plate isn't returning for some odd reason. With the spring under the dash removed the only thing that returns the pedal with our cylinder is the pp springs. Unless there was a severe amount of air in the system, the pedal should come up with our cylinder.
If our master is adjusted to flow so much fluid that the pp is becoming inverted or over extended it could possibly hang up as well causing the pedal not to return and the clutch would continue to be dissengaged during that time until the pp becomes un-hung.
Its very strange that you say the clutch seems to still be dissengaged after the pedal is released. That would definately be something going on with the pressure plate and that would also be why the pedal doesn't return.
I just measured a new gm slave and it appears to have about .950" of travel on the piston/tob. If you have .25" of gap that would only leave you with .700" of travel at the slave. Could it be possible that with the increased fluid displacement of our cylinder along with an excessive gap that you could actually be maxing out the stroke of the slave and pulling air in from that point? That may also make the tob hang up and not return as it should causing your pedal not to return and the clutch to have a prolonged dissengagement...
Thats just a thought...does the air bubbles introduce theirself only when you pump the pedal? Just curious as I have never used a mity vac and I don't really know the procedure.
Since you state that the engine bumps the rev limiter even when the pedal is released and the gear is selected would make me think that the pressure plate isn't returning for some odd reason. With the spring under the dash removed the only thing that returns the pedal with our cylinder is the pp springs. Unless there was a severe amount of air in the system, the pedal should come up with our cylinder.
If our master is adjusted to flow so much fluid that the pp is becoming inverted or over extended it could possibly hang up as well causing the pedal not to return and the clutch would continue to be dissengaged during that time until the pp becomes un-hung.
Its very strange that you say the clutch seems to still be dissengaged after the pedal is released. That would definately be something going on with the pressure plate and that would also be why the pedal doesn't return.
The air bubbles don't only come when the pedal is pumped, as I got them with the master and slave disconnected and you can't pump the pedal like that. I don't really think that's the problem, but I did locate a pressure bleeder, so I can use it if I have to.
I had my master adjusted to push really far, and I was thinking that I had it adjusted too far like you stated, but when I adjusted it in again to the point that it was very difficult to get it in reverse the problem is still there.
I am wondering if not having the shim is causing the slave to over extend. I'm thinking about pulling the trans and installing the shim to see what happens. At this point I have so much time into this that pulling the trans again won't be much more work (and it's starting to look like it may have to come out one way or the other).
Couple other interesting things. When I power shift and the pedal stick, with the motor hitting the limiter, the pedal doesn't seem to come back until I release the gas pedal.
Also, I can powershift at 4000 rpm and it seems ok, but 5000 and above causes the problem. I'm not sure exactly where the cross over is between having the problem and not having it.
I'm done working on it for tonight, but any input is appreciated.
I've decided that on Friday I'm going to pull the trans and install the shim and see if it effects the problem or not. If that does do the trick then I'll probably take the slave back and see about getting another new one under warrantee.
Thanks!
Last edited by ScreaminRedZ; Sep 1, 2009 at 05:56 PM.
I hear ya on that. And I understand what your sayig, but the slave is still part of the hydrolics, right. There is fluid in it, and if there is the littlest air bubble in it then youll have issues, Right. And whats the difference in using the mighty vac and pressure bleeding it.
TECH Apprentice
iTrader: (3)
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 322
Likes: 2
From: Kingsburg, Ca (Central Valley)
I agree. The pedal was super rock solid with the master disconnected from the slave. Even though it pulled air bubbles after a while (not sure from where), I really don't think the problem is the master.
I honestly didn't measure to see if it needed a shim as I called and confirmed that it didn't need it first. I will say that I had a bad feeling about not installing it, but went with the instructions given.
The air bubbles don't only come when the pedal is pumped, as I got them with the master and slave disconnected and you can't pump the pedal like that. I don't really think that's the problem, but I did locate a pressure bleeder, so I can use it if I have to.
I had my master adjusted to push really far, and I was thinking that I had it adjusted too far like you stated, but when I adjusted it in again to the point that it was very difficult to get it in reverse the problem is still there.
I am wondering if not having the shim is causing the slave to over extend. I'm thinking about pulling the trans and installing the shim to see what happens. At this point I have so much time into this that pulling the trans again won't be much more work (and it's starting to look like it may have to come out one way or the other).
Couple other interesting things. When I power shift and the pedal stick, with the motor hitting the limiter, the pedal doesn't seem to come back until I release the gas pedal.
Also, I can powershift at 4000 rpm and it seems ok, but 5000 and above causes the problem. I'm not sure exactly where the cross over is between having the problem and not having it.
I'm done working on it for tonight, but any input is appreciated.
I've decided that on Friday I'm going to pull the trans and install the shim and see if it effects the problem or not. If that does do the trick then I'll probably take the slave back and see about getting another new one under warrantee.
Thanks!
I honestly didn't measure to see if it needed a shim as I called and confirmed that it didn't need it first. I will say that I had a bad feeling about not installing it, but went with the instructions given.
The air bubbles don't only come when the pedal is pumped, as I got them with the master and slave disconnected and you can't pump the pedal like that. I don't really think that's the problem, but I did locate a pressure bleeder, so I can use it if I have to.
I had my master adjusted to push really far, and I was thinking that I had it adjusted too far like you stated, but when I adjusted it in again to the point that it was very difficult to get it in reverse the problem is still there.
I am wondering if not having the shim is causing the slave to over extend. I'm thinking about pulling the trans and installing the shim to see what happens. At this point I have so much time into this that pulling the trans again won't be much more work (and it's starting to look like it may have to come out one way or the other).
Couple other interesting things. When I power shift and the pedal stick, with the motor hitting the limiter, the pedal doesn't seem to come back until I release the gas pedal.
Also, I can powershift at 4000 rpm and it seems ok, but 5000 and above causes the problem. I'm not sure exactly where the cross over is between having the problem and not having it.
I'm done working on it for tonight, but any input is appreciated.
I've decided that on Friday I'm going to pull the trans and install the shim and see if it effects the problem or not. If that does do the trick then I'll probably take the slave back and see about getting another new one under warrantee.
Thanks!
TECH Apprentice
iTrader: (3)
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 322
Likes: 2
From: Kingsburg, Ca (Central Valley)
I called before installing the trans and they said not to use it and then I asked again once I started having problems and they were adamant that it was not required. As Jonathan from Tick stated above, though, they install them on every one even though the instructions say not to.
I haven't mentioned the pressure plate yet, but I'm gonna give it the benefit of the doubt and try the shim and then a new slave before bringing up the pressure plate.
I haven't mentioned the pressure plate yet, but I'm gonna give it the benefit of the doubt and try the shim and then a new slave before bringing up the pressure plate.
I called before installing the trans and they said not to use it and then I asked again once I started having problems and they were adamant that it was not required. As Jonathan from Tick stated above, though, they install them on every one even though the instructions say not to.
I haven't mentioned the pressure plate yet, but I'm gonna give it the benefit of the doubt and try the shim and then a new slave before bringing up the pressure plate.
I haven't mentioned the pressure plate yet, but I'm gonna give it the benefit of the doubt and try the shim and then a new slave before bringing up the pressure plate.
Is it possible to measure without removing the bell housing? I'm planning on pulling the trans only, throwing the shim in and then reinstalling it. I want to work fast because if it doesn't work then I should have time to pull the trans again and get started on the next idea.