what physically makes an expensive converter different then an ebay one
what physically makes an expensive converter different then an ebay one First off I did a search and read all the threads and the general consensus was everyone repeating you get what you pay for.
That's fine and all but I need to actually know what fails because i like to be well informed, and all I could really figure out is the 4/6 cyl clutch+pwm=weak and that a big cooler is recommended.
So please don't just turn this in to a you get what you pay for thread. Physically show me the difference.
For the record I've had a $125 daaco converter that's nothing more then a restalled stock converter and it worked fine. I also have an $845 vigilante converter which also works fine. So I've experienced both ends of the spectrum.
And right now I just need a ~2800rpm converter that weighs less then stock.
So now lets compare.
Here's the cheapest 9.5" converter. It's $239
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/4L65E...item3ca6a57bfe
ebay links die so I will put the info and pics here.
Looks like a 4/6 cyl converter tigged up with an adapter plate added?
What will fail on it?
Next we'll move up to a $454 TCI streetfighter. A very common brand that a lot like. (and although some don't they do sell probably more converters then anyone)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TCI-S...item27ab27cf84
minimal info is given. It again looks like a 4/6 cyl converter with an adapter plate?
What's done to it to double the price and make it stronger?
Next lets look at an edge.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/EDGE-...item414a37218a
I can see here the lockup clutch is carbon so we should assume it has a higher holding power which is good?
Whatelse?
AGAIN DON'T TURN THIS IN TO A USELESS YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR THREAD. It's purely informational. I'm not advocating one way or another.
That's fine and all but I need to actually know what fails because i like to be well informed, and all I could really figure out is the 4/6 cyl clutch+pwm=weak and that a big cooler is recommended.
So please don't just turn this in to a you get what you pay for thread. Physically show me the difference.
For the record I've had a $125 daaco converter that's nothing more then a restalled stock converter and it worked fine. I also have an $845 vigilante converter which also works fine. So I've experienced both ends of the spectrum.
And right now I just need a ~2800rpm converter that weighs less then stock.
So now lets compare.
Here's the cheapest 9.5" converter. It's $239
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/4L65E...item3ca6a57bfe
ebay links die so I will put the info and pics here.
9.5" 245MM Torque Converter
Customized Stall Speed, available from 2800-5500 Rpm Stall
4130 Chrome Moly Flanged Impeller Hub
Precision Laser Cut Mounting Ring With .003 or less Flatness
4340 Precision Pilot
4340 Hardened Turbine Hub and Splines
High Performance Lockup Clutch Friction
Completely Tig Welded t Impeller
Tig Welded t Turbine
Torrington High Performance Stator Bearings
Torrington High Performance Turbine Bearings
High Performance Max STR Torque Stator Sprag Assembly
Computerized Robotic Sealing Welds
TCRS Computerized High Speed Balancing To less than 5 grams
Nearly 12lbs lighter than a factory 12" Converter
Runout Tolerances of less than .005
Customized Stall Speed, available from 2800-5500 Rpm Stall
4130 Chrome Moly Flanged Impeller Hub
Precision Laser Cut Mounting Ring With .003 or less Flatness
4340 Precision Pilot
4340 Hardened Turbine Hub and Splines
High Performance Lockup Clutch Friction
Completely Tig Welded t Impeller
Tig Welded t Turbine
Torrington High Performance Stator Bearings
Torrington High Performance Turbine Bearings
High Performance Max STR Torque Stator Sprag Assembly
Computerized Robotic Sealing Welds
TCRS Computerized High Speed Balancing To less than 5 grams
Nearly 12lbs lighter than a factory 12" Converter
Runout Tolerances of less than .005
What will fail on it?
Next we'll move up to a $454 TCI streetfighter. A very common brand that a lot like. (and although some don't they do sell probably more converters then anyone)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TCI-S...item27ab27cf84
BALANCED YES
LOCK-UP NO
10.00 INCHES
ANTI-BALLOONING PLATE YES
FURNACE BRAZED YES
LOCK-UP NO
10.00 INCHES
ANTI-BALLOONING PLATE YES
FURNACE BRAZED YES
What's done to it to double the price and make it stronger?
Next lets look at an edge.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/EDGE-...item414a37218a
All wear surfaces are fitted for enclosed torrington bearings and pump and turbin are welded AND furnace brazed. The lock up feature is upgraded using the newest "high carbon" friction. This converter will hold better then 600+ hp
Whatelse?
AGAIN DON'T TURN THIS IN TO A USELESS YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR THREAD. It's purely informational. I'm not advocating one way or another.
Last edited by Aaron91RS; Nov 5, 2009 at 11:00 AM.
The expensive converters such as Yank, vig, fti, I believe all have billet front covers. This gives the converter the ability to handle alot more power. Not to mention they are better for nitrous too.
Check this out:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...education.html
I'll tell you one thing, you won't find any TCI, Daaco, Ebay, B&M stall etc. etc. that will be as efficient as any FTI, Yank, Precision Industries, Circle D etc. etc. Might come off the line as hard but that's about it.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...education.html
I'll tell you one thing, you won't find any TCI, Daaco, Ebay, B&M stall etc. etc. that will be as efficient as any FTI, Yank, Precision Industries, Circle D etc. etc. Might come off the line as hard but that's about it.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 24,241
Likes: 89
From: Turnin' Wrenches Infractions: 005
I ran an edge non billet for a while and it was fine. The non billet converters can produce great 60 fts. But, looking at a true performance oriented car, the billet converters are nicer and built to be beat on. Also, the adapter ring cuts down significantly on internal volume of the converter. The adapter rings have legs that take up space also. The billet converters use all available space between the motor and trans. Depth wise.
Last edited by 01ssreda4; Apr 8, 2010 at 11:23 AM.
yeah i would be willing to bet the cheaper ones will shell your tranny out over time (been there) and they will probably lose a lot of mph at the track from being far less efficient....street manners may vary as well...im not sure why you need to be convinced to buy a good converter, there is a lot at stake when gambling with a shitty one...but i guess its your money...i had to learn the hard way, buy a cheap converter, shell the tranny, etc, ended up costing me $2500 instead of just paying the 900 for a good converter..
11 Second Club
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 322
Likes: 1
Circle D Specialties:
Billet Street Series - Stage I
$725
LS1 300MM Style Converter
Billet Front & Billet Lock Up Piston
Fully Furnace Brazed & Hand Tig Welded
High Carbon Lock-Up Clutch
Lightweight Design ~ 30lbs
Torrington Needle Bearings - 3 Bearing Design
Bearing in Billet Front for Proper Clutch Clearance
Heavy Duty Roller Clutch
9.5" 245mm - Stalls from 2500-4000
Rated up to 450 RWHP
Thats just the Stage 1. All those things listed the cheapo converters DONT have. The cheapo converters are a GM 4cyl converter with adapter tabs welded on to fit LS1. Thats where they get the high stall from. Notice how its a one size fits all stall? Thats because nothing changes in the converter. Its literally a 4cyl Sunfire converter with tabs welded on it. Look at the pictures you posted. See the tabs welded on? Inside that pile is a paper thin lockup clutch. Here is a pic of it next to a lockup clutch out of a Vigalante converter:
That general stall the cheapos give is for like a stock 2000 A4 LS1. Add or take away power and the stall will change with it, sometimes significantly. The premium converters are specifically built and stalled to a specific setup, not one size fits all.
The cheapo converters will eventually come apart under the power of a modded LSx engine and they will take out the trans along with it by contaminating the fluid when they go.
I got that clutch pic from THIS THREAD. Lots of good info in there. Circle D has some great posts in there with excellent pics of their top quality converter as well. I recommend giving them a call before you fully decide which company to choose.
Billet Street Series - Stage I
$725
LS1 300MM Style Converter
Billet Front & Billet Lock Up Piston
Fully Furnace Brazed & Hand Tig Welded
High Carbon Lock-Up Clutch
Lightweight Design ~ 30lbs
Torrington Needle Bearings - 3 Bearing Design
Bearing in Billet Front for Proper Clutch Clearance
Heavy Duty Roller Clutch
9.5" 245mm - Stalls from 2500-4000
Rated up to 450 RWHP
Thats just the Stage 1. All those things listed the cheapo converters DONT have. The cheapo converters are a GM 4cyl converter with adapter tabs welded on to fit LS1. Thats where they get the high stall from. Notice how its a one size fits all stall? Thats because nothing changes in the converter. Its literally a 4cyl Sunfire converter with tabs welded on it. Look at the pictures you posted. See the tabs welded on? Inside that pile is a paper thin lockup clutch. Here is a pic of it next to a lockup clutch out of a Vigalante converter:
That general stall the cheapos give is for like a stock 2000 A4 LS1. Add or take away power and the stall will change with it, sometimes significantly. The premium converters are specifically built and stalled to a specific setup, not one size fits all.
The cheapo converters will eventually come apart under the power of a modded LSx engine and they will take out the trans along with it by contaminating the fluid when they go.
I got that clutch pic from THIS THREAD. Lots of good info in there. Circle D has some great posts in there with excellent pics of their top quality converter as well. I recommend giving them a call before you fully decide which company to choose.
Last edited by CoolAid; Nov 5, 2009 at 12:17 PM.
To further conversation would these statements be accurate?
-the twice as expensive tci is nothing more then the cheap generic 4cyl one inside?
-most failures occur in the cheap ones due to the weak lock-up clutch? If that's eliminated by using a non-lockup then do you take out the major weak point?
-a cheap daaco being a restalled stock one still retains the stock size lock-up clutch so maybe it will hold up at least as good as a stock converter.
-the twice as expensive tci is nothing more then the cheap generic 4cyl one inside?
-most failures occur in the cheap ones due to the weak lock-up clutch? If that's eliminated by using a non-lockup then do you take out the major weak point?
-a cheap daaco being a restalled stock one still retains the stock size lock-up clutch so maybe it will hold up at least as good as a stock converter.
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The biggest problem with any 4/6 converter with a ring welded on is the insufficient lockup clutch. It will fail. It will take your tranny with it.
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WHIPPLE Superchargers, Procharger, Magnuson, Powerbond Sale, HPTuners packages!, Trickflow, AFR, PRC, CHE Trunion upgrade, $100 7.400" pushrod set, Custom Cam of your choice
Check this out:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...education.html
I'll tell you one thing, you won't find any TCI, Daaco, Ebay, B&M stall etc. etc. that will be as efficient as any FTI, Yank, Precision Industries, Circle D etc. etc. Might come off the line as hard but that's about it.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...education.html
I'll tell you one thing, you won't find any TCI, Daaco, Ebay, B&M stall etc. etc. that will be as efficient as any FTI, Yank, Precision Industries, Circle D etc. etc. Might come off the line as hard but that's about it.
97% efficient by the slip RPM, which is a lower bound (there
might be torque multiplication, though probably not much)
and it got there by 5000RPM. That's damn good for anyone,
and especially a cheapo. Too bad about the clutch.
Yank is the only one I ever saw advertise efficiencies, and
they didn't (last I looked) advertise any over 95% and that
was not one you'd call a "performance" converter; the old
SY3500. Most are rated less. Maybe they are conservative.
My Fuddle HP/Street gets just to 95% (by slip) at 6000RPM,
but is multiplying torque up to 5000-5500. I tasked them
to try and match the SY3500, but at an STR of 2.0 (not
1.7). They did it. But others who were less demanding in
their build specs, got poorer efficiency or so I gather.
I don't know how the newer Yank versions do, for that;
the SS series is supposed to be efficient but I've seen no
numbers.
All you can know about eBay converters, is you don't get
to know.
have you looked into the acc converters on ebay??
ive seen a couple used and both worked great...my buddy put one in an old chevy truck...he paid 198 bucks for it and gained.6 off his 1/4 mile et it was only a 3200 stall....
my tci ssf 4000 is really efficient but its a little more pricey than the 10"street fighter you posted....
ive also seen 10 second cars on 200 dollar daeco speacials....
myself i think its a hit or miss deal on any converter...
ive seen a couple used and both worked great...my buddy put one in an old chevy truck...he paid 198 bucks for it and gained.6 off his 1/4 mile et it was only a 3200 stall....
my tci ssf 4000 is really efficient but its a little more pricey than the 10"street fighter you posted....
ive also seen 10 second cars on 200 dollar daeco speacials....
myself i think its a hit or miss deal on any converter...
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,080
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From: So.Cal.
On the cheap ones the front cover flexes when:
- the engine spins the convertor at higher rpm,
- the transmission line pressure goes high.
When the front cover flexes, it places extra load on the crankshaft thrust surface of the #3 main bearing (in the LSx), causing it to wear out prematurely...
this increases crankshaft end-play which leads to a deteriorated CKP signal which means you may see higher rpm misfires/stumbles (which will cause you to chase your tail trying to fix the symptoms and not find the real cause).
- the engine spins the convertor at higher rpm,
- the transmission line pressure goes high.
When the front cover flexes, it places extra load on the crankshaft thrust surface of the #3 main bearing (in the LSx), causing it to wear out prematurely...
this increases crankshaft end-play which leads to a deteriorated CKP signal which means you may see higher rpm misfires/stumbles (which will cause you to chase your tail trying to fix the symptoms and not find the real cause).
TECH Resident
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 859
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From: Frozen Tundra, WI
There are only 2 (U.S.) places that supply internal parts for converters. The ebay group buys their internals from Precision...if I recall correctly. They have quality equipment and keep their prices down by not spending money on magazine ads...rely on word of mouth and ebay (now). They have a carbon lock-up clutch available, too...but I still wouldn't lock it up under heavy throttle.
Last edited by Paul57; Nov 6, 2009 at 06:50 PM.
The bottom line is:
1. The high-end converters are much stronger and able to tolerate more power and abuse.
2. They also tend to be matched to your specific combo and therefore able to better achieve whatever it is your goal is in changing it. ie; better mileage, better towing, quicker et, top end speed, whatever
That being said it is a fact that sometimes top notch converters fail and sometimes cheap pieces of **** go fast and don't break. deal with it, lol
1. The high-end converters are much stronger and able to tolerate more power and abuse.
2. They also tend to be matched to your specific combo and therefore able to better achieve whatever it is your goal is in changing it. ie; better mileage, better towing, quicker et, top end speed, whatever
That being said it is a fact that sometimes top notch converters fail and sometimes cheap pieces of **** go fast and don't break. deal with it, lol
So for a 1995 Firehawk that is pretty much stock would a Ebay 2800 converter be up to the task of a bolt on LT1?
I am looking into getting a stall but only have around a 300.00 budget and our shop is pulling the tranny to replace the Rear main seal ( which is covered under the aftermarket warrenty) and its a perfect time to put a little stall in there while the tranny is out!
I am looking into getting a stall but only have around a 300.00 budget and our shop is pulling the tranny to replace the Rear main seal ( which is covered under the aftermarket warrenty) and its a perfect time to put a little stall in there while the tranny is out!
Found this thread on another forum about the Revmaxx Converters being sold on Ebay.
http://www.ls1lt1.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34279
http://www.ls1lt1.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34279
