A better approach for Firebird Headlight Doors?
05-02-2016, 10:52 PM
#41
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Another thing. Look at the pic of that gear in post 1. Look carefully. Notice anything? Doesnt it seem odd to anyone that the gear stripped half the threads, like it wasn't meshed correctly. When my plastic gears stripped it took the entire tooth out, not half. This looks like the worm gear wasnt aligned properly. I dont know, but the way it stripped looks like intall error to me, as when someone forgets to put the thrust washer back in allowing the helical gear to move and unmesh from the worm gear, or the housing flexed somehow allowing the helical gear to unmesh from the worm gear, causing the strip. Imho
Last edited by moneypit00; 05-02-2016 at 11:01 PM.
05-02-2016, 11:28 PM
#42
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Another thing. Look at the pic of that gear in post 1. Look carefully. Notice anything? Doesnt it seem odd to anyone that the gear stripped half the threads, like it wasn't meshed correctly. When my plastic gears stripped it took the entire tooth out, not half. This looks like the worm gear wasnt aligned properly. I dont know, but the way it stripped looks like intall error to me, as when someone forgets to put the thrust washer back in allowing the helical gear to move and unmesh from the worm gear, or the housing flexed somehow allowing the helical gear to unmesh from the worm gear, causing the strip. Imho
1. Not properly tightening down the body section that contains the worm gear motor to the other half of the body that holds that gear (there are 4 tabs that need to be squeezed to do this) and not doing that properly allows the worm to shift when being stressed at the ends of travel. It's in the instruction to tighten those tabs so as to prevent exactly this scenario.
2. The epoxy that holds the cover back in place cracking when the motor body flexes from the stress induced at the end of travel which allows the gear to shift over (this is why the T-brace was added to the good kits).
05-03-2016, 08:25 AM
#43
The information you posted on bronze, aluminum, and gears is so off that it doesn't warrant a reply. The instructions provided by the gear suppliers, their testing of the bronze vs. aluminum options, and the returns they reference from stripped metal gears tell an accurate story. If you really think that bronze gears are the holy grail here, you should personally invest and put them back into production. I'm trust that you are right and that you will rake in millions.
Again... even the instructions that come with the metal gears warn about this and have a disclaimer that the metal gears can't take this stress.
^ That is the premise of this thread. The new Cardone design makes this replacement easy and a true maintenance item. (For anyone who doesn't have some other problem and is getting normal life out of nylon gears.)
05-12-2016, 04:28 PM
#44
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So, you delete my post and say it's 2nd reason for deletion is that I failed to provide technical data to back up my claims, but you don't have to provide technical data to back up your own claims? Ok. My claims are based on direct experience between me, friends and others on this forum over the years. Are you asking me to hire a firm to collect and analyze the data of failure rate ratios of the plastic vs bronze gears? I can't and neither can you or anyone else here.
If he had installed it correctly in the first place (he admitted to not using epoxy) it likely would have never failed in the first place and this thread would have never been created or added to false claims about aftermarket gears. And I just bought a bronze gear kit last month so I'm not sure where you're claim of them being out of production comes from.
Btw, anyone I know (myself included) that has replaced plastic gears with another aftermarket plastic gear, did so because of continued failures multiple times. Every single time the choice was made to use bronze the failures ended (provided they're installed correctly, of course). The cardone housing cover can still flex and cause failures because 3 tiny screws is questionable vs a sealed and rigid cover epoxied 360 degrees around its cover. I've seen this with my own eyes.
If he had installed it correctly in the first place (he admitted to not using epoxy) it likely would have never failed in the first place and this thread would have never been created or added to false claims about aftermarket gears. And I just bought a bronze gear kit last month so I'm not sure where you're claim of them being out of production comes from.
Btw, anyone I know (myself included) that has replaced plastic gears with another aftermarket plastic gear, did so because of continued failures multiple times. Every single time the choice was made to use bronze the failures ended (provided they're installed correctly, of course). The cardone housing cover can still flex and cause failures because 3 tiny screws is questionable vs a sealed and rigid cover epoxied 360 degrees around its cover. I've seen this with my own eyes.
Last edited by moneypit00; 05-12-2016 at 05:09 PM.
05-12-2016, 05:14 PM
#45
Mr. Moneypit is having some trouble making an appropriate comment in the thread, but has pointed out some additional areas of confusion. If they want to have a more direct conversation on these points, I will go ahead and address them pro-actively and hopefully others can benefit from the additional discussion.
- With regard to the question of longevity of metal vs. plastic.
We'll ignore things like carbon fiber and other properties of plastic that may be beneficial and assume, for the sake of argument that "metal is better than plastic." My assertion is that it doesn't matter in the case of these motors due to the very common failure of the motor and gear case connection. That failure will still cause a "better" metal gear to strip and we're just left with a more expensive problem in the end. On any part, some piece is going to wear out. Even if the metal gears were indestructible, some other part of the motor would wear out first. I would rather a cheap plastic gear be the weak link than have a strong metal gear hasten the motor to gear case failure, a failure of the worm gear, or some other part that would require a full motor replacement. I deduce, based on my personal experience and other people's experience, with metal gear failures that a metal gear is NOT a lifetime solution to the problems with these motors. Therefore, if I assume that I will die in the next 50 years and that a plastic gear will last me at least 5 years, each - purchasing a plastic gear is a more economical option.
^ This was not a good idea before this new motor design -> which is the point of this thread. The new design makes changing the gears easy.
Now that this thread (and my Nylon gears) are both 5 years old, my economics are being proved out. If plastic gears only last me 5 years each going forward, I have proven that metal gears are a waste of money. (If one doesn't mind the labor of changing them on the new motor design.) The $45 I saved in 2011 is now in the stock market appreciating and by the time I sell this car, I'll have more money than Donald Trump.
Here is a description of the tab failure from one of the first metal gear suppliers: http://www.bfranker.badz28.com/headl...htgearfailures
- With regard to the epoxy being a good cover fastener.
One thing I did not include in my original post is that I used the epoxy that came with my gears first. It failed, as it has for many many people over the years - this is why the T-Bar came about. The epoxy doesn't take well. In order for the epoxy to hold, you have go goop up the motor. Then... if the gear fails, one may have to destroy the case to get at the gear. I suppose this isn't an issue if one assumes the metal gear is a lifetime solution, but I think the many thread about the motor to gear case problem prove that it is not.
After my epoxy cover came loose, (I was able to recover it in my driveway.) I tried a purpose-made glue for the plastic. (not a sealant) That failed also. The plastic these things are made out doesn't take any adhesive very well.
- With regard to the my cover coming off being related to my gear failure.
It was not. The original post references that the side that didn't strip was the one where the cover came off.
- Not all metal gears are the same.
I've pointed this out in other threads that if one wants to invest in a metal gear, the Dickman gears are the way to go. It looks like he's supplying a brass gear currently, which I'm not sure is that consequential - but he provides an insert for the rubber stress relief inside the gear and also provides a T-Bar. I would expect that keeping the factory stress relief would retain some longevity of the motor and the T-Bar would help address any complications with gluing the cover back on.
- With regard to the question of longevity of metal vs. plastic.
We'll ignore things like carbon fiber and other properties of plastic that may be beneficial and assume, for the sake of argument that "metal is better than plastic." My assertion is that it doesn't matter in the case of these motors due to the very common failure of the motor and gear case connection. That failure will still cause a "better" metal gear to strip and we're just left with a more expensive problem in the end. On any part, some piece is going to wear out. Even if the metal gears were indestructible, some other part of the motor would wear out first. I would rather a cheap plastic gear be the weak link than have a strong metal gear hasten the motor to gear case failure, a failure of the worm gear, or some other part that would require a full motor replacement. I deduce, based on my personal experience and other people's experience, with metal gear failures that a metal gear is NOT a lifetime solution to the problems with these motors. Therefore, if I assume that I will die in the next 50 years and that a plastic gear will last me at least 5 years, each - purchasing a plastic gear is a more economical option.
^ This was not a good idea before this new motor design -> which is the point of this thread. The new design makes changing the gears easy.
Now that this thread (and my Nylon gears) are both 5 years old, my economics are being proved out. If plastic gears only last me 5 years each going forward, I have proven that metal gears are a waste of money. (If one doesn't mind the labor of changing them on the new motor design.) The $45 I saved in 2011 is now in the stock market appreciating and by the time I sell this car, I'll have more money than Donald Trump.
Here is a description of the tab failure from one of the first metal gear suppliers: http://www.bfranker.badz28.com/headl...htgearfailures
- With regard to the epoxy being a good cover fastener.
One thing I did not include in my original post is that I used the epoxy that came with my gears first. It failed, as it has for many many people over the years - this is why the T-Bar came about. The epoxy doesn't take well. In order for the epoxy to hold, you have go goop up the motor. Then... if the gear fails, one may have to destroy the case to get at the gear. I suppose this isn't an issue if one assumes the metal gear is a lifetime solution, but I think the many thread about the motor to gear case problem prove that it is not.
After my epoxy cover came loose, (I was able to recover it in my driveway.) I tried a purpose-made glue for the plastic. (not a sealant) That failed also. The plastic these things are made out doesn't take any adhesive very well.
- With regard to the my cover coming off being related to my gear failure.
It was not. The original post references that the side that didn't strip was the one where the cover came off.
- Not all metal gears are the same.
I've pointed this out in other threads that if one wants to invest in a metal gear, the Dickman gears are the way to go. It looks like he's supplying a brass gear currently, which I'm not sure is that consequential - but he provides an insert for the rubber stress relief inside the gear and also provides a T-Bar. I would expect that keeping the factory stress relief would retain some longevity of the motor and the T-Bar would help address any complications with gluing the cover back on.
05-12-2016, 05:21 PM
#46
Re-read the first post.
As long as the gear is well greased, the cover shouldn't need to be sealed. If grease contamination ever becomes a problem, it can be replaced with the next Nylon gear change for an extra 50 cents, without spoiling the economics.
Last edited by wssix99; 05-12-2016 at 05:27 PM.
05-12-2016, 05:53 PM
#47
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I wouldn't assume that my low post count equals low experience. Posts counts are of little concern to me and in no way directly affect my own or someone elses experience. I use the search feature 99.99% of the time to get the info I need and have been since 07 when I decided to join after loosing my first account due to lost/forgotten ls1tech and email passwords. Look, This is just going to go back and forth so let's just (agree to disagree) and move on. Ok?
06-24-2016, 08:20 AM
#48
I've read through this and didn't see the plastic header panel mentioned. I had bought brass gears some time ago and still had a problem after a few years. I found that the plastic header panel flexes and the stops (also plastic) can break, which allows the door to try to go too far which does not trigger the cutoff for the motor right away. I had a "bouncing" door on one side which while entertaining was not practical for night driving. 
To fix this, I removed the header panel (good bit of work, but since I was removing an intercooler I had the nose off anyway) and fabricated a couple of 90 degree bends out of aluminum (actually curved to try and match the plastic panel). I drilled them to match the stock mounting holes for the motors, and then added a couple of 6mm bolts with nuts to replace the broken plastic stops. The end result is there is aluminum (metal) in this area where there was only plastic before, and the stops are also metal.
I didn't write down any measurements, but it's one of those things that once it is apart it's pretty easy to see the size and shape the aluminum needs to be, and you can use the header panel to mark where you need to drill holes both for mounting and the stops.
In addition, I tightened the motor tabs. The doors are 100% solid so far.
I'll attach a pic with text to help.
To fix this, I removed the header panel (good bit of work, but since I was removing an intercooler I had the nose off anyway) and fabricated a couple of 90 degree bends out of aluminum (actually curved to try and match the plastic panel). I drilled them to match the stock mounting holes for the motors, and then added a couple of 6mm bolts with nuts to replace the broken plastic stops. The end result is there is aluminum (metal) in this area where there was only plastic before, and the stops are also metal.
I didn't write down any measurements, but it's one of those things that once it is apart it's pretty easy to see the size and shape the aluminum needs to be, and you can use the header panel to mark where you need to drill holes both for mounting and the stops.
In addition, I tightened the motor tabs. The doors are 100% solid so far.
I'll attach a pic with text to help.
06-28-2016, 05:26 PM
#49
I've read through this and didn't see the plastic header panel mentioned. I had bought brass gears some time ago and still had a problem after a few years. I found that the plastic header panel flexes and the stops (also plastic) can break, which allows the door to try to go too far which does not trigger the cutoff for the motor right away. I had a "bouncing" door on one side which while entertaining was not practical for night driving.
To fix this, I removed the header panel (good bit of work, but since I was removing an intercooler I had the nose off anyway) and fabricated a couple of 90 degree bends out of aluminum (actually curved to try and match the plastic panel). I drilled them to match the stock mounting holes for the motors, and then added a couple of 6mm bolts with nuts to replace the broken plastic stops. The end result is there is aluminum (metal) in this area where there was only plastic before, and the stops are also metal.
I didn't write down any measurements, but it's one of those things that once it is apart it's pretty easy to see the size and shape the aluminum needs to be, and you can use the header panel to mark where you need to drill holes both for mounting and the stops.
In addition, I tightened the motor tabs. The doors are 100% solid so far.
I'll attach a pic with text to help.
To fix this, I removed the header panel (good bit of work, but since I was removing an intercooler I had the nose off anyway) and fabricated a couple of 90 degree bends out of aluminum (actually curved to try and match the plastic panel). I drilled them to match the stock mounting holes for the motors, and then added a couple of 6mm bolts with nuts to replace the broken plastic stops. The end result is there is aluminum (metal) in this area where there was only plastic before, and the stops are also metal.
I didn't write down any measurements, but it's one of those things that once it is apart it's pretty easy to see the size and shape the aluminum needs to be, and you can use the header panel to mark where you need to drill holes both for mounting and the stops.
In addition, I tightened the motor tabs. The doors are 100% solid so far.
I'll attach a pic with text to help.
06-28-2016, 07:23 PM
#50
I'm not sure what the point of this is, unless you lost the stock metal stops on your car somehow??? There should be a metal tab notched from and then bent out from the bracket that the motor bolts to. There was a plastic bumper that fitted over this tab to cushion the door arm hitting it. As these bumpers disintegrate, we've had pretty good success replacing them with a short section of fuel hose.
Last edited by V8 Supra Builder; 06-29-2016 at 12:41 AM.
06-28-2016, 09:38 PM
#51
Perhaps the later model cars used metal on the stops on the header panel? My car (1995) had plastic stops that were part of t he header panel and had snapped off. Part of the header panel had snapped off on one side where the stop had cracked. The aluminum serves to reinforce the header panel. Thanks for the hose idea- I'll see if I can fit some in there to take the place of the washers I used.
Here's the view of the later bracket with the metal tab. This picture still has the original yellow-ish plastic bumper attached:
04-17-2017, 08:02 AM
#52
15324982 - Green Cable Seal (2.85 to 2.0 mm wire - used in both Connectors)
* Note: I used the green seals, but I recall that if I were to do it over again I would have used the tan seals: 15324984 - Tan (2.4 to 2.0 mm wire) I remember (but am not completely sure) that I wasn't completely happy with the tightness of the green seals, although they matched what was stock on the car. (The tan seals are a little tighter.) If anyone does this behind me, I'd recommend springing the extra 75 cents to have both green and tan seals on hand to try them both out.
* Note: I used the green seals, but I recall that if I were to do it over again I would have used the tan seals: 15324984 - Tan (2.4 to 2.0 mm wire) I remember (but am not completely sure) that I wasn't completely happy with the tightness of the green seals, although they matched what was stock on the car. (The tan seals are a little tighter.) If anyone does this behind me, I'd recommend springing the extra 75 cents to have both green and tan seals on hand to try them both out.
I had some grey seals in my headlight bulb connectors that caused them to rust all to hell and I had some brittle cracked insulation in my bulb wires, so I rebuilt the bulb-sides of my harnesses this weekend.
In that activity, I had some great news that the green cable seals have worked!!! No more corrosion.
For the new bulb seals, I have moved to the tan seals, which are much tighter. They are a bit of a pain to work with - they are so tight - but I expect the effort will be worth it.
The grey cable seals that are spec'd to the connectors are just too loose for this application, particularly with the variability in insulation thicknesses that I've seen shipped with various components.
04-18-2017, 02:15 AM
#53
One of my headlights had screws to hold it together. The other did not. I imagine because it was changed by a previous owner. I had to pry that one apart to put the bronze gear in. I used epoxy and three zip ties to hold the case together. I let the epoxy cure for 24 hours. It has been about a week. I will report back any failure.
04-18-2017, 12:21 PM
#54
The motors are interchangeable, so you'll want to put the OEM motor on the side of the car where the motor bracket sandwiches the cover on to the motor. (in case your epoxy fails) That way, you can use the screwed-on motor on the other side, where it's less protected against epoxy failure and that cover coming off.
04-18-2017, 12:26 PM
#55
Lol, trying to argue with a moderator about brass gears.
I've seen them strip down the middle just like a plastic gear.
If you buy replacement headlight motors be sure you test them before re installing everything. The cardone rebuilts have been known to come out of the box with the polarity reversed.
I've seen them strip down the middle just like a plastic gear.
If you buy replacement headlight motors be sure you test them before re installing everything. The cardone rebuilts have been known to come out of the box with the polarity reversed.
04-18-2017, 06:26 PM
#56
Moderation has nothing to do with anything. Technical discussion can be had by all and all are free to debate the technical merits of wasting money on brass gears. lol
Amen. I don't know if I mentioned it in this thread or not, but I had to replace the connector seals in my Cardone connectors, fix the polarity issue, and repair one of the power wires. (It was cut and the "factory" just spliced the broken pieces by twisting the copper wire to itself - no solder or crimp or anything.)
My next sentence was going to say that otherwise, they have been really good, but I just remembered that I spent this weekend re-wiring the headlight wires coming out of my Cardone units because the wire insulation became brittle and was cracking. Oh, well. The motors and gears have been great - the wiring was absolute crap. (I think I've replaced 100% of the wiring and connectors on the things at this point...)
My next sentence was going to say that otherwise, they have been really good, but I just remembered that I spent this weekend re-wiring the headlight wires coming out of my Cardone units because the wire insulation became brittle and was cracking. Oh, well. The motors and gears have been great - the wiring was absolute crap. (I think I've replaced 100% of the wiring and connectors on the things at this point...)
