ShaunRF

Even with the Aster Bracket?

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

But you can't "pulley up" a typical bolt on "street" pro charger system because the belt won't hold it. A "10" pulley combo is lucky to make 5lbs by 4500rpm. As seen in the dyno testing we just did with a actual decent F1R head unit. So to get say 10lbs by 4500 at low RPM you need to run a 20lb pulley combo. 20lb pulley combos aren't happening on the blower kits we are talking about, Aster bracket or not.

I'm hung up on valve springs because you aren't going to get the centrifugal blower kits we are talking about here to perform well at low RPM, period. We are talking about a street kit with maybe 8-10lbs of boost by redline in a vette. It's not making 650whp unless it has the supporting mods.

I'm not saying the small blower setups don't have their place and aren't "cool". I've had them as well... They do sound great and make for a fun little boost in power. But comparing them to a like priced turbo setup is silly IMO.

98_WS6_M6

iTrader: (18)

With these brackets belt slip is almost non existent. There's a guy in the drag section running 20psi on an F series and an Astrr bracket with no belt slip. Most guys I read about with belt slip have set their tensioner brackets up incorrectly

ShaunRF

Thats what most people seem to report, which is why I asked. His statement made me wonder if he had used the AB before.

Blown06

iTrader: (32)

Man, I can totally see and understand most of the pros and cons listed in this thread regarding procharger vs. turbo. However, I feel like the expression of these pros and cons is just flat over-dramatic.

You'll never find anyone that will tell you that if power under the curve is most important then a procharger is the way to go. That said however, procharged combos set up right can flat out work. I've proved it in my truck both in street trim with the D1sc kit and now with the truck transformed into a more race oriented setup with an F2.

Most of this discussion talks around the idea of drag racing/roll racing or just racing in general. So for that purpose, the procharged car and be geared along with the use of the correct torque converter and be a very fast set up.

When talking about SBE stuff and relatively mild everyday driveable streetability type ****, sure, I'll jump on board and say the turbo doesn't need much to skew the advantage to its side.

My point is this, and I'll use my truck as an example, even when it was a daily driven deal I had supporting "flywheel back" mods that made the thing an absolute animal on the street. If I'm building a forced induction setup, I could give two ***** about how much boost/power it makes at 4000 rpm....or hell even 5000 rpm. Why, because when being run a full throttle those rpms are never seen anyway.

...and I don't wanna hear the "but a 4500 stall converter is just too loose to be streetable" ****. God has blessed us with lock up converters for cruising.

I guess I'm just trying to say that this thread has gotten a little over-dramatic.

Blown06

iTrader: (32)

Regarding all the bitching about belt issues.........thats on the owner/builder, not the design of the kit. I've been doing the procharger thing now for a long time and will personally vouch that 95% or more of these comments/issues are either coming from someone who is just unable to set it up correcl.

My 4100+lb streetable truck has gone 9.0's at over 150 mph with a procharger without a single belt issue;. I ran the truck a lot back in a 2013-2014 and will tell you that almost every truck event or track night night with a hand full of turbo trucs with similar power that I attended.....it was a common site seeing my truck driving itself on back on the trailer, with almost all the turbo trucks having to be wenched.

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

For every magical unicorn setup with no belt slip (and usually no time slips or proof) there are 20 people that have nothing but problems... even with the aster bracket. Look up speedracer5532. He had nothing but problems with his 8 rib aster bracket F1 combo. Did all sorts of modifications to the aster bracket trying to strengthen /support it. Eventually went to a cog system. Has tons of pics and time slips out there.

Also The C5/C6 common street kits don't have an F series blower. They have the P1SC's that aren't going to make 20lbs of boost even if the belt didn't slip.

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

What did your belt/blower setup consist of... Was your kit the basc street kits we are talking about with an 8-rib running 20lbs of boost and making 10+lbs by 4k? We've never had any kind of belt slip on teh blower car we just put together either... but we run a cog setup that isn't going to bolt on to a vette and keep all the accessories.

Bob@BruteSpeed

iTrader: (16)

http://shop.brutespeed.com/ATI-1GQ40...-13-C6-LS3.htm
ProCharger's newer dedicated drive Corvette systems offer a 12 rib dedicated drive serpentine belt, with an F-1X head unit option. Bob

Bob@BruteSpeed

iTrader: (16)

https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...r-bracket.html








Bob

ddnspider

iTrader: (26)

having not installed by blower yet I am obviously turbo biased.....but this statement is skewed. The only time this matter is in the initial gear when you go WOT. A stalled auto setup with good shift extensions is going to keep you in boost for the full pull once the rpms are up. Yes not max boost, but plenty of it.

sweet99ss

iTrader: (41)

Why all the sudden does it have to be a street kit capable of 20lbs of boost? I ran my c6 on 10lbs with zero belt slip on a p1sc on a 6-rib setup with zero issues. I would think you could easily do a d1sc and an 8-rib and make 14+lbs of boost and atleast 750hp without issue. Just judging by how well my p1sc did on 10lbs on a 6-rib...

Bob@BruteSpeed

iTrader: (16)

We had a customer at the old EPP shop that ran a Corvette on a road course with a D-1SC at 16 psi with the older 8 rib kit. No problems with belt slippage at all for over two years.
We then pulled out the 346 and built another engine for him, and jumped up to an F-1C.

https://www.procharger.com/blog/proc...s-road-courses
ProCharger Power Takes to Road Courses



As if a stock ZO6 Corvette wasn't already the ultimate track car, Tom Snitzer enlisted long-time ProCharger dealer Bob Beam to build an even more wicked track animal. Snitzer's C5 ZO6 now takes to the track with a built 402-cid LS2 equipped with an intercooled ProCharger F-1C supercharger set up.




On the dyno, this car has laid down 804 rwhp and 728 ft.-lbs. of torque. On the track, it simply lays down rear tire tracks from the exit of every turn.

Bob

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

That sounds like a slick new unit, but it’s not the typical street units I was talking about above. ( I admit I dind’t even know those existed) So with all options and the 12 rib it’s $8,400? Does the 12 rib pulley setup allow you to retain all the OEM accessories, AC etc? Truly a bolt on deal?

These are the units I’m talking about… The ones the c5/c6 guys have been running for years now.



Define “plenty of it”? Can anyone show us an example of P1SC/D1SC with a 6-8rib street “bolt-on” setups on the vettes making say 10lbs below 5k? I’ve sure never heard of any. (not saying they don’t exist) With a pulley combo setup to make decent boost at low RPM those units would be over speeding by redline I’d think, assuming you could get a belt to hold on in the first place.

Even with the race head units we don’t see squat for boost with a “10lb pulley” on an F1R at low rpm. Sure it makes 1100hp with the 20lb setup, but that's not the point here. The smaller units in my experience are much worse. My P1SC and P600B setups with the advertised “10lb pulleys” were lucky to see 3lbs by 4k and maybe 8lbs by 6500. Both on very mild 383’s. That’s the only point I’m trying to make here. We all know blower cars have made retardo power and gone fast… I’m talking about a specific nitch in the lower end common base models and their faults I’ve personally experienced VS a small turbo for this guys vette.

Because as seen above with our all our race F1R setup, with the usual 10lb pulley combos don’t make squat for boost in the low/mid RPM range most street cars operate in. I guarantee you weren’t making much boost at low rpm with your setup. I also guarantee a $190 Gt45 turbo on your C6 would perform better.

Bob@BruteSpeed

iTrader: (16)

Yes indeed, all accessories are retained. Bob

Bob@BruteSpeed

iTrader: (16)

I would never run an F-1R at 10 psi as the F-1R takes too much power to drive it. The larger and newer F-1X is much more efficient, but for just 10 psi I would go with an F-1A.




https://vimeo.com/4192845
Bob Johnson's CTS-V was at 809 rwhp with 14.4 psi of boost from an F-1A, then we swapped out the LS2 intake manifold for a FAST 92. We lost two psi of boost due to the FAST intake being more efficient, but the rwhp went from 809 to 864! He took his V to another shops Dyno Day and made 900 rwhp on their DynoJet. This car has been together since 2009, his name on here is skydiver. As far as I know, he has only changed the blower belt once.

Cam that was used in this V, and the dyno graph is posted here too.
http://shop.brutespeed.com/Brute-Spe...d-Camshaft.htm

More articles:
http://www.superchevy.com/features/0...cadillac-ctsv/
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...issue-phr.html

Bob

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

The P600B and P1SC on my 383’s behave very similarly. 10lb pulley and I’d be lucky to see 3psi by 4k..5psi by 5500. 12lb pulley slipped up top with the 6 rib and supplied tensioner. This was before aster brackets and the lot, but it all seemed relative that the rated pressure of the pulley combo is usually barely reached by a 6500rpm redline. And about half the rated boost is hit at 5k. Would you say that holds mostly true?

With our cog F1R setup we dynoed a 10, 15, 20lb pulley combos back to back. The 20lb rated pulley combo made 19 at 6500. 15lb pulley made 13 at 6500. Peak HP numbers are good and all, but with my turbo combo I’m at max boost by around 4k and stay there the whole run.

This is the 15lb sheet. The 10 and 20 are a few replies back.

ddnspider

iTrader: (26)

You're missing my point. Once you're WOT, on gear change you're not dropping below 5k anyways so this whole low boost at low rpm argument only holds weight for ONE gear going WOT at low rpm cause after that a proper setup stays at high rpm near max boost. That is also the whole point of a waste gated blower setup, you run a smaller pulley to make more boost at low rpm and bleed off excess pressure at high rpm. There's plenty of research out there about running small pulleys with wastegates to get the low end power increased.

sweet99ss

iTrader: (41)

Yes maybe it can make more power, but it is going to take a lot more work and probably not be reliable for cheap. I bought my procharger kit used for $3500 installed it in a weekend and pulled intake/tune c6 Z06's. Doesn't get to much better then that..

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

You aren’t making a valid point. It's no where near max boost at 5k.

In my experience in the 10 centrifugal blown engines I’ve worked with (which I know isn’t much compared to Bob) your lucky to see HALF the rated boost at 5k. So even if your RPM never dips below 5k… from 5k to 7k you are still having to build the other half of your rated boost. Look at the boost curve in the dyno sheet above.

Here is a great example.

Procharger P1SC kit on a 2015 mustang with a typical 8lb pulley setup…

http://www.svtperformance.com/2015/0...arger-install/

Note that sweet boost curve… 3.5 PSI at 5k! What a power house!!