Supercharger vs Turbo.... OFFICIAL ARGUMENT THREAD.
10-28-2016, 07:22 PM
#462
Why not throw a LSA supercharger or Whipple on it, Yes you can make more power with a turbo but there are quite a few fast ZL1's and CTSVs. I bought a new LSA supercharger minus the lid and drive for $1800, Lid was $400 and the drive can be configured on the cheap or buy GM parts like I did and spend another $1,000 and get everything you need including AC compressor. With a smaller pulley on the supercharger I should get around 10-12lbs of boost and LS9 cam I'm hoping for around 550-600hp at the wheels. If I put in more cam and did a little porting on the blower and clean up the heads a little I could easily gain another 100+, That should be fun in an S10 with a 6-speed.
PS No lag of any kind and tons of torque right off idle.
PS No lag of any kind and tons of torque right off idle.
10-29-2016, 12:31 PM
#464
It takes a lot of skill to set anything up properly. Getting a centri to run where you want it takes a lot of trial and error. Changing pulleys, wastegate springs, varying RPMz and what not. Any car that makes power and gets it down the track has had some time and skill in it. I do think a centri is a great unit for a manual car, and a turbo is great for an auto.
10-30-2016, 06:48 AM
#466
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ATI ProCharger and Moser Sales 260 672-2076
PM's disabled, please e-mail me
E-mail: brutespeed@gmail.comob@brutespeed.com
https://brutespeed.com/ Link to website
10-30-2016, 12:13 PM
#467
To the argument about having to spin a centri blower hard to make power, it's like Bob said, you're running an F1-R. You'd be better off using a D1sc or an F1a if you wanted to not spin the blower that hard, and still make good power and torque.
I've used my car as an example, it was a simple bolt on using the Aster bracket, with an F1-a feeding a 416, and the car made 700ft/lbs of torque by 4000 rpm, and that was with only 15 degrees of timing in it. As it was, the tires began to spin on the dyno since they are street tires. At 3000rpm, it was making 550ft/lbs.
I'm not even spinning the F1-a to max, and my tune is pretty soft on purpose for street driving. I have no belt issues, that weren't my fault. I had put the tensioner idler pulley in the wrong spot, so as the belt stretched, the tensioner bottomed out, but that was a simple fix of moving the idler.
Here's my 416/f1a combo, compared to my old 347/d1sc combo. Notice the flat torque line above 4100, that's because the tires spun.
Here's the data log from that pull showing the 14.5 degrees of timing, and fat afr. You also see the boost level off, that's because the tensioner was bottomed out, again, my error in installing it... but an easy fix.... should make 19-20 psi now.
I've used my car as an example, it was a simple bolt on using the Aster bracket, with an F1-a feeding a 416, and the car made 700ft/lbs of torque by 4000 rpm, and that was with only 15 degrees of timing in it. As it was, the tires began to spin on the dyno since they are street tires. At 3000rpm, it was making 550ft/lbs.
I'm not even spinning the F1-a to max, and my tune is pretty soft on purpose for street driving. I have no belt issues, that weren't my fault. I had put the tensioner idler pulley in the wrong spot, so as the belt stretched, the tensioner bottomed out, but that was a simple fix of moving the idler.
Here's my 416/f1a combo, compared to my old 347/d1sc combo. Notice the flat torque line above 4100, that's because the tires spun.
Here's the data log from that pull showing the 14.5 degrees of timing, and fat afr. You also see the boost level off, that's because the tensioner was bottomed out, again, my error in installing it... but an easy fix.... should make 19-20 psi now.
10-31-2016, 10:11 AM
#468
Agreed
Forcefed you gotta read this and understand exactly what I've been saying the whole time. Turbo is not for everyone. Case in point this guy ^. This guy just wants a nice bump in hp and like he said he isn't looking for a huge power car and isn't going to take it to the track. D1sc with twin intercoolers and 7-8 psi boost should get him in the 550ishrwhp range with an easy racetronix fuel system. And look really clean on his low mileage car.
Forcefed you gotta read this and understand exactly what I've been saying the whole time. Turbo is not for everyone. Case in point this guy ^. This guy just wants a nice bump in hp and like he said he isn't looking for a huge power car and isn't going to take it to the track. D1sc with twin intercoolers and 7-8 psi boost should get him in the 550ishrwhp range with an easy racetronix fuel system. And look really clean on his low mileage car.
To the argument about having to spin a centri blower hard to make power, it's like Bob said, you're running an F1-R. You'd be better off using a D1sc or an F1a if you wanted to not spin the blower that hard, and still make good power and torque.
I've used my car as an example, it was a simple bolt on using the Aster bracket, with an F1-a feeding a 416, and the car made 700ft/lbs of torque by 4000 rpm, and that was with only 15 degrees of timing in it. As it was, the tires began to spin on the dyno since they are street tires. At 3000rpm, it was making 550ft/lbs.
I'm not even spinning the F1-a to max, and my tune is pretty soft on purpose for street driving. I have no belt issues, that weren't my fault. I had put the tensioner idler pulley in the wrong spot, so as the belt stretched, the tensioner bottomed out, but that was a simple fix of moving the idler.
Here's my 416/f1a combo, compared to my old 347/d1sc combo. Notice the flat torque line above 4100, that's because the tires spun.
Here's the data log from that pull showing the 14.5 degrees of timing, and fat afr. You also see the boost level off, that's because the tensioner was bottomed out, again, my error in installing it... but an easy fix.... should make 19-20 psi now.
]
I've used my car as an example, it was a simple bolt on using the Aster bracket, with an F1-a feeding a 416, and the car made 700ft/lbs of torque by 4000 rpm, and that was with only 15 degrees of timing in it. As it was, the tires began to spin on the dyno since they are street tires. At 3000rpm, it was making 550ft/lbs.
I'm not even spinning the F1-a to max, and my tune is pretty soft on purpose for street driving. I have no belt issues, that weren't my fault. I had put the tensioner idler pulley in the wrong spot, so as the belt stretched, the tensioner bottomed out, but that was a simple fix of moving the idler.
Here's my 416/f1a combo, compared to my old 347/d1sc combo. Notice the flat torque line above 4100, that's because the tires spun.
Here's the data log from that pull showing the 14.5 degrees of timing, and fat afr. You also see the boost level off, that's because the tensioner was bottomed out, again, my error in installing it... but an easy fix.... should make 19-20 psi now.
]
Your example doesn’t really show us anything? Power isn’t what is being questioned, it’s the rated pulley boost VS RPM that sucks. Centri boost is RPM dependent, period. It's the nature of that blower, no real way around it. You can run a loose converter and gear it to the moon so your never at low rpm… but that’s not economical or practical for a street car.
Is the purple line your boost curve?? What is your boost pressure at 3k VS 7k?
10-31-2016, 11:44 AM
#469
I have to look at the data log again, but at 3k, I believe it was roughly 4psi of boost. I'm not sure why you fixate on boost psi vs rpm though. In a race, the only time you see 3000rpm is at the launch, right? And even the turbo guys will ramp in the boost rate so it doesn't shock the tires, we're talking about the guys making 800-1000 or more power, not the 500-600 guys.
So having more boost down low only shreds the tires.
There is no doubt that hp vs psi of boost is far more efficient with a turbo, I've never argued that point.
All I'm saying is, I've never wished I had more instant boost down low. I've actually kept the timing low in the lower rpms to help a little with traction on the street. Also, 4psi on a 416, with good heads, good cam and exhaust is a fair bit of air. I'd rather make less boost, and have more power, than the opposite.
So having more boost down low only shreds the tires.
There is no doubt that hp vs psi of boost is far more efficient with a turbo, I've never argued that point.
All I'm saying is, I've never wished I had more instant boost down low. I've actually kept the timing low in the lower rpms to help a little with traction on the street. Also, 4psi on a 416, with good heads, good cam and exhaust is a fair bit of air. I'd rather make less boost, and have more power, than the opposite.
10-31-2016, 12:10 PM
#471
For vette guys that don’t want a ton of HP and would be happy with 500ish, a remote turbo kit is still easier and will perform better. For the cost of a base C5 intercooled P1SC 8-rib kit your looking at about $7000 shipped. You can have a shop install a basic GT45 remote turbo kit completely (zero work done by owner) and it will still be cheaper with less work done by the owner. CX sells GT45, WG, BOV, and a turbo blanket kit combo for $299 shipped. With $6700 remaining I’m very confident I could get a turbo kit up and running without ever touching a wrench myself.
Sure we are running an F1R, but the P1SC on a stock mustang graph I just posted did the EXACT same thing. Half the rated boost by 5k and maybe hits the target boost by 7k. Many other graphs out there show the exact same thing. As well as my personal experience in every centri blower car I’ve ever been in. Again, there’s nothing wrong with a centri blower car. But they don’t make boost as fast as a turbo setup… and they don’t make the power per pound a turbo will.
Your example doesn’t really show us anything? Power isn’t what is being questioned, it’s the rated pulley boost VS RPM that sucks. Centri boost is RPM dependent, period. It's the nature of that blower, no real way around it. You can run a loose converter and gear it to the moon so your never at low rpm… but that’s not economical or practical for a street car.
Is the purple line your boost curve?? What is your boost pressure at 3k VS 7k?
Sure we are running an F1R, but the P1SC on a stock mustang graph I just posted did the EXACT same thing. Half the rated boost by 5k and maybe hits the target boost by 7k. Many other graphs out there show the exact same thing. As well as my personal experience in every centri blower car I’ve ever been in. Again, there’s nothing wrong with a centri blower car. But they don’t make boost as fast as a turbo setup… and they don’t make the power per pound a turbo will.
Your example doesn’t really show us anything? Power isn’t what is being questioned, it’s the rated pulley boost VS RPM that sucks. Centri boost is RPM dependent, period. It's the nature of that blower, no real way around it. You can run a loose converter and gear it to the moon so your never at low rpm… but that’s not economical or practical for a street car.
Is the purple line your boost curve?? What is your boost pressure at 3k VS 7k?
10-31-2016, 12:33 PM
#473
I don’t. I fixate on cost VS performance. To take a bored/stroked engine that should already be making close to 500hp with a CAM, intake, exhaust, heads, etc… Then bolt on 7k worth of blower to get 550ftlbs at 3k and 700hp at 4k isn’t that great when you look at total cost VS HP gained. Put your same blower kit on a bone stock 5.3 with the typical mild turbo cam on stock valvetrain parts, stock intake, and factory exhaust manifolds…It won’t make anywhere near 550 at 3k or 700 at 4k. Yet with a turbo it is very possible to make the same power without all the engine work and supporting parts.
10-31-2016, 12:44 PM
#474
I guess you missed the part where I said I wasn't spinning the blower to max rpm, about 80% to be exact.
Why the ls3, because it was the best bang for the buck for aluminum factory blocks. Then why the stroker crank, because I wanted a forged crank, so might as well go for more cubes.
It was 700ft/lbs at 4000rpm, but again look at the tune, it was with 14.5-15 degrees of timing in it, and low 11s, high 10s afr.... and through an airfilter that was probably too small. But you know what, it still will break the tires loose in 3rd gear at 4000rpm, so having MORE than 700ft/lbs on the street at 4000rpm is worthless.
Honestly, you'd be surprised what I have into my setup. The f1a I got used for $2100, and the aster bracket was $650. Forget about the cold side, because that's the same if it was a turbo, so for $2750, I have a really fun car to drive, that I didn't have to take to a welder or fabricator, everything is stock accessories.
Is the blower expensive.... sure. But if I wanted to go turbo today, I'd put up the F1a for $2100, and get every penny back out of it. Try that with a turbo.
Why the ls3, because it was the best bang for the buck for aluminum factory blocks. Then why the stroker crank, because I wanted a forged crank, so might as well go for more cubes.
It was 700ft/lbs at 4000rpm, but again look at the tune, it was with 14.5-15 degrees of timing in it, and low 11s, high 10s afr.... and through an airfilter that was probably too small. But you know what, it still will break the tires loose in 3rd gear at 4000rpm, so having MORE than 700ft/lbs on the street at 4000rpm is worthless.
Honestly, you'd be surprised what I have into my setup. The f1a I got used for $2100, and the aster bracket was $650. Forget about the cold side, because that's the same if it was a turbo, so for $2750, I have a really fun car to drive, that I didn't have to take to a welder or fabricator, everything is stock accessories.
Is the blower expensive.... sure. But if I wanted to go turbo today, I'd put up the F1a for $2100, and get every penny back out of it. Try that with a turbo.
10-31-2016, 01:01 PM
#475
I don't know where you figured $7k worth of blower. Sure the kit is $7k, look at the difference between head unit and bracket vs turbo, because everything else is about the same. So my blower/bracket was less than $3k, of which I will get damn near 100% back out of if I ever were to sell it.
10-31-2016, 03:26 PM
#476
You can get a p1sc kit install in a day for $3500 with low miles. I have done it 3 different times and make over 500hp and it will look much cleaner and you can show your big shinny blower off in the engine bay... Not to mention a lot of guys just like blowers better.. Exhaust shops that have the skills to do a turbo kit around here are going to charge out the *** and aren't going to do every little thing besides exhaust to get it running. And most vette owners aren't going to like all that piping and ****. A blower setup is much more clean and less to worry about. I can just keep arguing the exact same thing over and over too lol
Only thing I’m willing to agree on is it would sound different, be slower, and cost more.
I guess you missed the part where I said I wasn't spinning the blower to max rpm, about 80% to be exact.
Why the ls3, because it was the best bang for the buck for aluminum factory blocks. Then why the stroker crank, because I wanted a forged crank, so might as well go for more cubes.
It was 700ft/lbs at 4000rpm, but again look at the tune, it was with 14.5-15 degrees of timing in it, and low 11s, high 10s afr.... and through an airfilter that was probably too small. But you know what, it still will break the tires loose in 3rd gear at 4000rpm, so having MORE than 700ft/lbs on the street at 4000rpm is worthless.
Honestly, you'd be surprised what I have into my setup. The f1a I got used for $2100, and the aster bracket was $650. Forget about the cold side, because that's the same if it was a turbo, so for $2750, I have a really fun car to drive, that I didn't have to take to a welder or fabricator, everything is stock accessories.
Is the blower expensive.... sure. But if I wanted to go turbo today, I'd put up the F1a for $2100, and get every penny back out of it. Try that with a turbo.
Why the ls3, because it was the best bang for the buck for aluminum factory blocks. Then why the stroker crank, because I wanted a forged crank, so might as well go for more cubes.
It was 700ft/lbs at 4000rpm, but again look at the tune, it was with 14.5-15 degrees of timing in it, and low 11s, high 10s afr.... and through an airfilter that was probably too small. But you know what, it still will break the tires loose in 3rd gear at 4000rpm, so having MORE than 700ft/lbs on the street at 4000rpm is worthless.
Honestly, you'd be surprised what I have into my setup. The f1a I got used for $2100, and the aster bracket was $650. Forget about the cold side, because that's the same if it was a turbo, so for $2750, I have a really fun car to drive, that I didn't have to take to a welder or fabricator, everything is stock accessories.
Is the blower expensive.... sure. But if I wanted to go turbo today, I'd put up the F1a for $2100, and get every penny back out of it. Try that with a turbo.
I didn’t know we were debating resale, but I suppose that’s a good point. $640 shipped buys a damn nice NEW S475 turbo that’s more capable than an F1A IMO. Turbo resale is pretty high as well. Popular S400 Turbos are snapped up as soon as they are posted in the classifieds here. I’ve sold mine local almost immediately. Both for about $100 less than what I paid initially. Great resale IMO.
To compare which unit is better at its job, the amount of power isn’t relevant was my point. I can install a centri blower on a decked out 632” mountain motor that will easily make 1200hp by 4k. That doesn’t mean the blower is good at its job. We were comparing turbos VS superchargers, not who has the biggest engine behind their power adder.
I’m saying it’s much more cost effective to have a low HP engine retaining OEM parts with more boost than it is to have a high HP aftermarket engine with less boost. To do this properly you want boost to come in quick and hold steady without slip or drama and you want a lot of it. A turbo is much better suited for this than a blower by nature.
We were debating the typical small blower bolt-on corvette kits under 650hp VS a cheap remote mount turbo kit. That’s where I got the $7k. That’s what NEW P1SC 8-rib intercooled kits cost for the C5. Which aren’t good for much over 12lbs anyway. Since used prices can vary a ton, I stuck to new pricing to compare like installs.
When install time is the only plus on the blower side of the argument… that’s pretty bad. What difference does it make if you have enough money left over to go turbo and pay someone else to install it? I’ll take a week long install over poor boost in my useable RPM range and a crap for gains in power vs my investment any day.
10-31-2016, 03:40 PM
#477
Yea a turbo kit put together by billy joe bob exhaust guy will for sure be more reliable then the proven p1sc kits from procharger... Very very doubtfull. I know I have had more little issues on my turbo build then I ever had on either of my procharger builds... Very small issues, but still more then my procharger builds and I think my kit has been more reliable due to it being a kit by a reputable sponsor. I would bet $ most random put together sts turbo kits won't be nearly as reliable as a blower and won't save you much if any $.
There is no doubt a place for prochargers on many different cars. Not sure why that's hard to see...
There is no doubt a place for prochargers on many different cars. Not sure why that's hard to see...
10-31-2016, 04:09 PM
#478
Yea, the factory exhaust system is a real reliability issue…C’mon man it’s a pipe with a flange on it! A turbo has 1 wet bearing! A blower has many gears/bearings. A good turbo anyway is MUCH more reliable than a centri blower! China stuff eh… worth the gamble at $190 I say. Very few failures reported with that model over the years.
Also another point is breakage and/or rebuilding on the procharger head unit VS another $190 and you’ve got a brand new GT45 at your door step. The rebuild on my P600B cost me about a grand including new gears back in 2009.
Also another point is breakage and/or rebuilding on the procharger head unit VS another $190 and you’ve got a brand new GT45 at your door step. The rebuild on my P600B cost me about a grand including new gears back in 2009.
10-31-2016, 04:40 PM
#479
2 blowers and 40k miles and never had a single issue with my blower and never needed rebuild and these were on already used kits to boot...
Procharger advantages
-Self contained. No need to drill and tap the oil pan.
-Reliable
-Installs in a day with normal tools
-Looks great under the hood
-Will make 6-700hp pretty easily
-No need to have any work done on the car or need to take it to a shop
-Much easier to tune
-Made in the USA
Procharger advantages
-Self contained. No need to drill and tap the oil pan.
-Reliable
-Installs in a day with normal tools
-Looks great under the hood
-Will make 6-700hp pretty easily
-No need to have any work done on the car or need to take it to a shop
-Much easier to tune
-Made in the USA
10-31-2016, 05:47 PM
#480
I don't know, I personally like the power delivery of my car with the blower... but then again, I've never driven a turbo 6-speed, but I know that at this stage, at any rpm, I'm traction limited before I'm power limited, and that's with 305 R888s.