Let's talk head(s)
05-15-2017, 08:39 PM
#1
Let's talk head(s) I'm slowly gathering parts to finally build my car and get some money for the stock stuff before it does actually let go. Been over 5 years with great luck now.
Ok so what I have now is:
Callies Dragonslayer 3.625 stroke
Callies Ultra H rods
Custom anodized Diamond Pistons 4.125 bore
Plan for a block is the Dart LS Next Iron. Gonna grab a Mantic triple while I'm at it also. Current cam will change for new setup and I'll have a D1X since I already sold my D1SC. Compression will be over 11 since I'm flex fuel and really only use e85 anyway.
My head is literally spinning thinking about what heads to get. Considering the HIP'd TFS 245s from Tooley but I'll need to change intakes and I'm not doing sheet metal or anything fancy, PRC285s but once again would need to change intakes, grab some pricey Mast heads, or go with the Dart Pro 1 LS3's. Tooley and Bewley swear by the HIP'd TFS 245s and my builder has seen good results from the new Darts and like TFS also. The PRCs I'm iffy on and Mast is higher price wise than I want to go that's why I didn't even mention All Pro or Brodix.
I just need a little clarity and more help since this a big decision and I only want to do it once. As of now I spin the setup to 6900 and will probably bump it to 7300ish but it's all about having a efficient setup to me. Not looking to make a whole lot more power as I really didn't want to do this at all but rather do it now than later.
Thanks for the help.
Ok so what I have now is:
Callies Dragonslayer 3.625 stroke
Callies Ultra H rods
Custom anodized Diamond Pistons 4.125 bore
Plan for a block is the Dart LS Next Iron. Gonna grab a Mantic triple while I'm at it also. Current cam will change for new setup and I'll have a D1X since I already sold my D1SC. Compression will be over 11 since I'm flex fuel and really only use e85 anyway.
My head is literally spinning thinking about what heads to get. Considering the HIP'd TFS 245s from Tooley but I'll need to change intakes and I'm not doing sheet metal or anything fancy, PRC285s but once again would need to change intakes, grab some pricey Mast heads, or go with the Dart Pro 1 LS3's. Tooley and Bewley swear by the HIP'd TFS 245s and my builder has seen good results from the new Darts and like TFS also. The PRCs I'm iffy on and Mast is higher price wise than I want to go that's why I didn't even mention All Pro or Brodix.
I just need a little clarity and more help since this a big decision and I only want to do it once. As of now I spin the setup to 6900 and will probably bump it to 7300ish but it's all about having a efficient setup to me. Not looking to make a whole lot more power as I really didn't want to do this at all but rather do it now than later.
Thanks for the help.
05-15-2017, 09:30 PM
#2
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With all the rectangle vs cathedral wars going on right now I had to laugh when I saw this thread start. If you're truly wanting once and done, then I wouldn't waste time or money on budget heads - I'd go straight to the top shelf. Mamo makes an LS7 head that's pretty badass. Mast 260 is a hell of a piece too.
05-15-2017, 11:06 PM
#4
Out of the box AFR LS3s would probably be the best bet.
Why? Well, AFR or TFS LS3 heads worked by Mamo? But then, MAST would be cheaper.
What about Frankenstein ported TFS LS3s with the 270cc port and 2.180" valve? Flows 393cfm. But is as much as the MAST heads.
Then the AI LS3 280cc program is really good. You could put it in an LSA head and get a stronger casting. Would be cheaper than anything else, but not a 6-bolt head.
And I'd want a 6-bolt head if you're doing the Dart block. So then I'd have to look at the LSX-LS9 heads or the LSX-LS3. Both are 6-bolt with better casting and decks (.625" vs .400") compared to stock. The only difference is the LS9 comes with ti intakes vs LS3 hollow-stem. 260cc with basically stock LS3 flow numbers. But it's as-cast. So could still get it ported. But then the price is well over 3k again.
How about the LSX-LS7 heads which would be around 2800, flow 370cfm, are a 270cc as-cast configuration, come with Ti intake and sodium filled exhaust, PAC springs, and is 6-bolt with the thicker deck. It's a good FI head for that bore. And it can still be ported further.
In the end, for the price, the AFR heads are really a better value. I think you're splitting hairs on most of these with boost equalizing things. So I'd go for the best casting, best valve configuration, 6-bolts, thicker deck, etc. AFR gives you all of that at a better price point.
Why? Well, AFR or TFS LS3 heads worked by Mamo? But then, MAST would be cheaper.
What about Frankenstein ported TFS LS3s with the 270cc port and 2.180" valve? Flows 393cfm. But is as much as the MAST heads.
Then the AI LS3 280cc program is really good. You could put it in an LSA head and get a stronger casting. Would be cheaper than anything else, but not a 6-bolt head.
And I'd want a 6-bolt head if you're doing the Dart block. So then I'd have to look at the LSX-LS9 heads or the LSX-LS3. Both are 6-bolt with better casting and decks (.625" vs .400") compared to stock. The only difference is the LS9 comes with ti intakes vs LS3 hollow-stem. 260cc with basically stock LS3 flow numbers. But it's as-cast. So could still get it ported. But then the price is well over 3k again.
How about the LSX-LS7 heads which would be around 2800, flow 370cfm, are a 270cc as-cast configuration, come with Ti intake and sodium filled exhaust, PAC springs, and is 6-bolt with the thicker deck. It's a good FI head for that bore. And it can still be ported further.
In the end, for the price, the AFR heads are really a better value. I think you're splitting hairs on most of these with boost equalizing things. So I'd go for the best casting, best valve configuration, 6-bolts, thicker deck, etc. AFR gives you all of that at a better price point.
Last edited by JakeFusion; 05-15-2017 at 11:25 PM.
05-15-2017, 11:32 PM
#7
The cfm difference is pretty negligible.
The ported LS3 stuff is around 390-400cfm. What's the ported LS7 stuff? 400-410?
AFR out of the box is 380+.
NA, it's LS7 all the way. The port efficiency on the LS7 is better. However, on a boosted setup, it's less important. The boost makes up for it. Having a big ole giant port that flows a lot of cfm with a big valve is going to make power under boost regardless of whether it's a rectangle port or a raised runner rectangle port.
Of course, you build your motor to make as much power as you can before you boost it to get the most out of it. But there are trade-offs in any build. And it sounds like swapping intakes and investing more than 3k into the heads is the limits of what Detoxx is willing to spend. And for good reason. The return on investment isn't there.
The ported LS3 stuff is around 390-400cfm. What's the ported LS7 stuff? 400-410?
AFR out of the box is 380+.
NA, it's LS7 all the way. The port efficiency on the LS7 is better. However, on a boosted setup, it's less important. The boost makes up for it. Having a big ole giant port that flows a lot of cfm with a big valve is going to make power under boost regardless of whether it's a rectangle port or a raised runner rectangle port.
Of course, you build your motor to make as much power as you can before you boost it to get the most out of it. But there are trade-offs in any build. And it sounds like swapping intakes and investing more than 3k into the heads is the limits of what Detoxx is willing to spend. And for good reason. The return on investment isn't there.
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05-15-2017, 11:36 PM
#8
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For the money AFR LS3, FAST 102 W/Mid-Length Runner,LLSR,
Check out Hammers Build or mine.
In a LS7 MMS LS7s & MSD W/ LLSR lots more money and may not have
Enough CI to take advantage.
Need to spin 7500 RPM to take advantage of Bore & Heads.
Just re read 7300 RPM, Juice cam is fine.
Check out Hammers Build or mine.
In a LS7 MMS LS7s & MSD W/ LLSR lots more money and may not have
Enough CI to take advantage.
Need to spin 7500 RPM to take advantage of Bore & Heads.
Just re read 7300 RPM, Juice cam is fine.
05-15-2017, 11:46 PM
#9
7500 isn't out the question but I would like to stay in the efficiency range of the combo. If it's not making power up there I don't see the need to spin it that high. I'm considering all options and that's the reason for this thread. I need as much info as possible before I make this decision.
Haven't heard much about the AFR LS3s but I'll look into it. I'd prefer to stay 6 bolt since I'm going with a 6 bolt block.
A fast 102 is something I'm probably gonna get anyway.
Haven't heard much about the AFR LS3s but I'll look into it. I'd prefer to stay 6 bolt since I'm going with a 6 bolt block.
A fast 102 is something I'm probably gonna get anyway.
05-16-2017, 12:16 AM
#11
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05-16-2017, 12:55 AM
#13
TECH Veteran
05-17-2017, 05:48 AM
#15
I think you should call and discuss the project with Bob at All Pro, he is an honest guy. If he doesn't feel he has a CNC program that fits your needs he can sell you a bare set with seats installed and you can get someone to port them to your needs.
06-30-2020, 10:46 AM
#17
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07-01-2020, 07:04 PM
#19
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