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I do not have any comparisons of the two just what it does without the filter, he just told me the filter was a pretty big restriction and to look into something like the TurboGuard.
It was just as large of a cone filter as we could fit in there right off of the turbo, I would guess it to be about 10 inches give or take an inch.
I do not have any comparisons of the two just what it does without the filter, he just told me the filter was a pretty big restriction and to look into something like the TurboGuard.
It was just as large of a cone filter as we could fit in there right off of the turbo, I would guess it to be about 10 inches give or take an inch.
This is the only graph I have of it.
A filter restriction shows up as a peak power limit, yes, but that is all that will change,
all that additional torque, combined with too much smoothing, this graph is not showing a filter restriction by itself, if at all.
What it looks like to me:
It looks like the boost was raised slightly and then leveled off by redline as is typical when the gate spring is nearing the end of it's ability to accommodate the control system.
Different days and conditions also may account for the difference.
Maybe something changed in the boost control between then and now, my bet is +1-2psi was added.
Might not have been a setting change; you can get more or less boost if EGT is high vs low because higher EGT is more likely to open the gate all else being equal because it will exert more pressure
A filter restriction shows up as a peak power limit, yes, but that is all that will change,
all that additional torque, combined with too much smoothing, this graph is not showing a filter restriction by itself, if at all.
What it looks like to me:
It looks like the boost was raised slightly and then leveled off by redline as is typical when the gate spring is nearing the end of it's ability to accommodate the control system.
Different days and conditions also may account for the difference.
Maybe something changed in the boost control between then and now, my bet is +1-2psi was added.
Might not have been a setting change; you can get more or less boost if EGT is high vs low because higher EGT is more likely to open the gate all else being equal because it will exert more pressure
That graph is with no filter, I don't have one with a filter but he said it was enough of a difference to go a different route.
That graph is with no filter, I don't have one with a filter but he said it was enough of a difference to go a different route.
Thx for confuzzling me,
bottom line is, I dont care how much of a restriction you think a filter is causing,
you run a filter because you care about the turbo/engine. End of discussion. If you think its a restriction you measure it with a gauge or filter poppet. And if there really is a restriction you enlarge the filter surface area until it disappears.
there is no other acceptable option unless this is a worthless turbo/engine and you have plans to thrash and replace it/them completely within a short period.
I just went by what the shop told me and their experiences. They are one of the premier shops in this area and have cars shipped to them from all over to be worked on. He told me with as little as I drive the car it wouldn't be too big of a deal to not run one and that the power difference was enough to not so that is what I am doing. Been fine going on 2 years now.
.....
you run a filter because you care about the turbo/engine. End of discussion.
That is not what is being discussed/argued. The conversation is around whether or not having a filter makes more power. A filter cleans better than no filter? No kidding.
That is not what is being discussed/argued. The conversation is around whether or not having a filter makes more power. A filter cleans better than no filter? No kidding.
Is that what you think this is about?
nay, it isn't about having a filter or not, probably why he told u stop posting ;D
it is about the fluid dynamics of air as it enters the compressor, with and without an air funneling device, or straightening device,
the filter aspect of it is simply a given. Cough* SHOULD be a given. Thus my post.
Found this random in 30 seconds, sounds good to me:
...Proper turbo intake theory requires 24 inches of straight intake pipe ahead of the impeller to allow the incoming air to straighten before encountering the blades on the impeller. Bouncing, twisting, jumbled air in the intake will not be "bitten" well by the impeller and can even cavitate....
...TAG (Turbo Air Guide) which is a honeycomb stainless steel grid installed in the intake immediately in front of the turbo housing to straighten the incoming air flow. Tests claim negligible air flow resistance up to considerable air flow requirements, and a decrease in boost for a given EGT in diesel engines meaning more air through the impeller and cylinders. I have not seen test results for gas engines to date.
To put this another way just because I got another minute,
The act of filtering is an inconsequential, independant variable. Example:
An air filter is on the driver side, the turbo is on the passenger side. Wham there is 8 feet of tube between them. The dynamics of the air passing the filter is unimportant because it is too far upstream to have anything to do with the compressor wheel's grip on incoming air in this example. We are not concerned with the 'air filter' for surely no such device could ever add any power just because it filters air.
If you are going to try to filter the air immediately near the compressor wheel, then the filter scheme will determine the organization of air near the compressor, this is true, and since there are a billion or trillion different kinds of "air filters" it is impossible to say in general that all filters will disorganize/organize the air near the compressor wheel. I would instead suggest that some do, and some do not, quite offhandedly as if this were obvious, and suggest you trial and error as you custom plumb each individual project. It isn't like "Yeah filtering adds power" is ever going to be true. Not sure how you could even ask that question honestly.
To put this another way just because I got another minute,
The act of filtering is an inconsequential, independant variable. Example:
An air filter is on the driver side, the turbo is on the passenger side. Wham there is 8 feet of tube between them. The dynamics of the air passing the filter is unimportant because it is too far upstream to have anything to do with the compressor wheel's grip on incoming air in this example. We are not concerned with the 'air filter' for surely no such device could ever add any power just because it filters air.
If you are going to try to filter the air immediately near the compressor wheel, then the filter scheme will determine the organization of air near the compressor, this is true, and since there are a billion or trillion different kinds of "air filters" it is impossible to say in general that all filters will disorganize/organize the air near the compressor wheel. I would instead suggest that some do, and some do not, quite offhandedly as if this were obvious, and suggest you trial and error as you custom plumb each individual project. It isn't like "Yeah filtering adds power" is ever going to be true. Not sure how you could even ask that question honestly.
My question IS about a filter vs no filter so don't tell me what IM asking about. The point is people have had both experiences, gains and losses just like the other member posted about. Yes I understand air straightening....I have a sticky that recommends having a honeycomb on a maf. My contention is that the straightening of airflow from a filter is offset by restricting airflow. If air filters are so much better at straightening then why don't all the fastest drag racers run one? If you believe you go faster with a filter and yet nobody does when you look at prostock stuff, huh. How about you go troll another forum?
Ok Guys. I'm going to run two silicone 90* bends and then my filter. Hopefully the bends don't cause much of a restriction. The current filter off of the turbo only has 3-1/2" of filter media and is next to the radiator and fans. I assume the 2 bends and say a 10"-12" filter routed away from the radiator would be much better. I go to the tuner next month on the 13th. I will ask if we can run it both ways back to back to see if there are any differences. Additionally I can probably do a run with it off as well. What do you think about the routing?
Two 90* bends routed away from the radiator. Current setup
The last pic looks like you could practically double the filter length straight out. What's in the way?
I can get a 9" overall length filter straight off of the turbo. I ordered the AFE pro dry s Filter. It should be here tomorrow. My only concern having it on the turbo was sucking in the hot air when the fans come on and the radiant heat from the radiator. A couple of 90* turns would place the filter a good distance from all of that and potentially keep the IAT'S down.
IMO you have too many silicone units and there should not be any 90* turns. Its fine for setting up ,just to get it going, using all that soft stuff is good to get the job done. But do not leave there long term; Replace 90's with gradual 45 to 45 or combined elements to form smoother paths. And weld length to the plumbing to avoid using long or bent couplers. I like to keep all my couplers straight and short.
You can get shield materials from cars in the junkyard with the engines pulled. Around me it was free they said to just take what I wanted of the stuff. So I found a bunch of identical shields in a bunch of BMW and Volvo that looked really nice, Ford has some good soft ones also. Most of them cut with tin snips. You could use these extremely easy to find materials to make ducting and shielding for the air filter and other areas. I take an infrared pyro gun and measure/write down the surface temps of everything in the engine bay after long drives in the sun. Then fab some shields, even just temp to see how it works and re-run the experiment.
My contention is that the straightening of airflow from a filter is offset by restricting airflow.
O u has a question still?
I thought I made it clear. Filtering the air is an independent variable. Did you not know what that means lol? If I installed an house-sized air box next to a dyno, and used an super-ultra HEPA filter to filter everything including viruses from the air fed to my car on the dyno. The filter surface area is so huge that there will be no restriction whatsoever i.e. the conditions during run will be identical to those without any filter whatsoever.
So there is no connection between "random filtering" or 'air filtering' and flow restriction. Those only exist because in the real world filters vary- but you aren't saying that or mentioning the fact that some filters are more restrictive than others and that it is impossible to determine how restrictive a given filter will be without measuring it.
Your turbo will suck those silicone 90s into it. My buddy had a 1 silicone 90 then a 10" filter and it sucked the 90 into the turbo and chewed a hole through it. To fix the issue he welded a cast aluminum 90 right onto the turbo.
FWIW ,, the air filter on a turbocharged 4 cyl indy car is like 4 feet long and about 16" at the big intake end. Basically the whole conning tower behind the driver is the air box and filter...
It will not suck those bends in unless you use a really really shitty air filter.
But adding 90deg bends in front of the turbo is the worst place you can put them
As said at the very start, you clearly have a shitload of room for a perfectly adequate air filter in front of that turbo. Stop complicating things
In no way will it be a restriction for that setup.
People are stupid, filter placement is key, and no **** a filter that restricts the turbo will make less power. End thread.
Originally Posted by stevieturbo
It will not suck those bends in unless you use a really really shitty air filter.
But adding 90deg bends in front of the turbo is the worst place you can put them
As said at the very start, you clearly have a shitload of room for a perfectly adequate air filter in front of that turbo. Stop complicating things
In no way will it be a restriction for that setup.
I had a huge (12-14") air filter where the battery was at 1 point and ran a 4" reinforced silicon coupler with 2-45*'s bends and it sucked it shut under boost. That said.....
Originally Posted by stevieturbo
As said at the very start, you clearly have a shitload of room for a perfectly adequate air filter in front of that turbo. Stop complicating things In no way will it be a restriction for that setup.
Damn this got crazy. So many opinions. I actually tested my set up dyno and track. Like i said minimal if any difference. Does that mean you will see the same results. Nooooo. Test it and find out. Hell everyone should test there ****. I have done things i was sure was gonna work, tested and then threw it away cause it didnt work. I can post my dyno sheets and my time slips but would it mean anything to even one other persons combo. Most likely not.
As for rubber bends make sure they are designed to be on the suction side of turbo and your golden. Semi trucks use rubber bends in there intake tract with very few failures even after 1 million miles and they move far more air then most turbo systems ever thought of with far dirtier filters then most would ever imagine. They are designed not to collapse. The cobra elbow i used on my system was from a peterbilt 220 garbage truck application. Worked like a charm.
in my opinion ddnspider talon is playing you. He rants his circle jerk book quote crap cause he gets a response out of you. Ignore him. He is just baiting you. Blow him off and do your own thing. I honestly skip any of his posts after the first 2 or 3 i read cause he is talking from a theoretical or an academic stand point and acting like he has done it himself. "Hint high frame rate camera and smoke going into the intake of the turbo". Lol.
edit: i could always be wrong about talon. Wouldnt be the first time i was wrong. I went back and read his posts and some of it is decent advise. Then some of it comes off as condecending bull. Maybe you just have to read between the lines with him. Sorry talon for thinking your completely full of it i guess your only half full like the rest of us. your just more vocal or textful about it i suppose.
03-20-2018, 03:26 PM
