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Back in the NA game. Boost was fun but I wanted to do an NA build again.
I picked up a pretty clean, 38k mile JSB C6z and it came with the following.
Ported MSD intake by JokerZ --- Spiral ported stock throttle body --- Vararam Air Intake --- PAC 1209x Valve Springs Johnson 2110 lifters --- ID1050X Injectors DSX Flex Fuel Kit --- Walbro 525 Hellcat Fuel Pump Meziere Billet Mechanical Water Pump --- Prospeed Coolant Fans Dewitt's Radiator (Not Installed) JS Alternator 250amp Hinson Motor/Trans Mounts Monster LT1-S Twin Disk Clutch with Lightened Flywheel Mighty Mouse Race Catch Can --- LME Ported Brodix BR7 Heads Custom Camshaft (253/263 .666 111+5) --- ATI Balancer ARP Headstuds Pfadt Tri-y Headers and Catted X Pipe --- Akropovic Axle Back Exhaust --- DSS Carbon Fiber Driveshaft RPM Stage 4 Diff with 3.90 Gears MGW Shifter and Race **** New OEM Yellow Calipers SS Brake Lines Performance AFX 2-Piece Rotors (Front/Rear) Katech TI Lugnuts Bilstein Shocks
The setup in the car made 644whp/602wtq. I only got to enjoy it for about 2 weeks before I started discovering/realizing it had some issues.
First thing I noticed, the valvetrain was LOUD and on cold starts I was getting some lifter knock. I discovered that the PAC springs that are in the heads have way too much seat pressure for the lifters to hold. The Johnson lifters are rated to 420lb open pressure and the springs were shimmed for something like 540lb open. Needless to say, the springs were collapsing the lifters over night and causing them to "bounce" around till they pumped back up. Luckily this took less than a second to happen upon start up.
Second, after looking at the dyno sheet, I knew something was off. With this cam, power should have been peaking up around 65-6700rpm. Instead, it was only peaking around 6100rpm. The rev limit was set to 7700rpm and I tried to make a pull up over 7000 and it just fell on its face. The lifters were also collapsing up top and causing valve float (something I am very familiar with). I could feel this on the shift. It would hesitate real fast before the power came back. This only happened at full throttle and/or a higher RPM shift.
So, rather than take my chances on the engine how it was set up, I decided to pull it apart and change it all, for the most part.
Here is a list of the changes happening. (The dashes in the original list indicate things I am changing or removing all together)
ARH 2" to 2-1/8" stepped headers with 3.5" collectors Holley Hi Ram base with Shrear fabricated lid A different, custom camshaft. Not able to share specs at this time. Just know its more duration, lift, and a wider LSA Send heads to WCCH to mill further for more compression Johnson ST2126LSR Lifters Katech Red Pump 108mm Throttle Body 4.5" Air Intake with Halltech filter Alky Control Meth Kit Meziere Electric Water Pump GZ Motorsports Vacuum Pump Corsa Extreme Exhaust
My goal with this is to make as close to, or over 700whp. I'm guesstimating torque will fall in the 550-560wtq range. Decided not to go solid roller at this time. Possibly going to start building a second motor (very slowly) on the side that will get all the goodies.
Went out to the half mile event hosted by Shift Sector, yesterday. This is a standing half mile event. The day was filled with plenty of ups and downs but ended on a high note with a 1st place win in the NA class with a top speed of 178mph! Conditions weren't the greatest, with a ~20mph headwind and 2000+ DA. I had a total of 3 runs and they were all above 170mph; 172mph, 178mph, and 174mph.
The day started out rough, when 2.5hrs into the drive, I realized that I forgot the key to my car! Luckily, I had a friend that was going to the event and he was able to swing by and grab it for me. Unfortunately, this meant that I had to wait a good bit to get my first run in. I missed the cooler weather in the morning and a period where the wind wasn't as strong. I didn't get my first run in until about 12pm.
On my first run, I didn't know what to expect. The beginning of the runway it very dusty, which meant traction is pretty much non existent. So, I tried to leave moderately hard and get it into second as soon as I could. The beginning of 2nd gear hooked well until the power really started coming in. On the top end of the run, I felt the car lay over a couple FT before the flag and I tried to shift it into 5th to power through the last few feet, but it just kinda fell on its face. The car shut off while I was slowing down and would not restart. After trying to start it a few times, I noticed fuel pressure wasn't rising. The tow truck showed up and the driver noticed a fuel leak under my car. Found the fuel rail had come loose and an injector popped out and just dumped all the fuel out. Good thing I had the Holley, cause it likely saved the motor in that event. Got the injector back in and rail tightened up. Pulled all the plugs and didn't see any signs of any issues.
On the second run, fastest of the day, everything went well. I think I might have let off the gas a TAD bit too early. But maybe only a couple feet. Doubt it would have made a huge difference in trap speed. I was concentrating on the shift light and when it came on, I instinctively let off the gas.
The last run was more of a pedal fest. I accidentally didn't even get into 100% throttle for the first couple feet.
Overall, had a great time. I plan to attend more events.
Just for a comparison, the next fastest NA Z06 was running 164mph. With a previous best of 169mph.
You may look at the Johnson 2116 lifters a lot less headache on adjusting and can handle more spring pressure (500+ pounds). They have a plunger travel of .093 and have an adjustment window of .025 to .045. The other ones you have you listed need an adjustable system or like 8 different pushrod lengths and to go through that hassle for really not much or if any gain. I always see on the Corvette Forum guys have pushrod issues and not running right as they did not set it up correct or exact which is the problem here with a non-adjustable valve train. I run the 2116 for the last 7 years and have 440 pounds of pressure open. I do have titanium intakes and hollow stem exhaust valves. If you run more cam and or shave the heads you better check piston to valve clearance before you go too far. A lot of good pieces you have there.
You may look at the Johnson 2116 lifters a lot less headache on adjusting and can handle more spring pressure (500+ pounds). They have a plunger travel of .093 and have an adjustment window of .025 to .045. The other ones you have you listed need an adjustable system or like 8 different pushrod lengths and to go through that hassle for really not much or if any gain. I always see on the Corvette Forum guys have pushrod issues and not running right as they did not set it up correct or exact which is the problem here with a non-adjustable valve train. I run the 2116 for the last 7 years and have 440 pounds of pressure open. I do have titanium intakes and hollow stem exhaust valves. If you run more cam and or shave the heads you better check piston to valve clearance before you go too far. A lot of good pieces you have there.
Yeah if you’re stock pistons you’re likely going to need to flycut some.
Jay, the list of mods currently on the car is impressive. My opinion…which is worthless…is that you have a badly mismatched valvespring and lifter combo. You are correct, the lifters are collapsing while sitting, and at high rpm, they have zero chance of standing up. That’s where your power is going. You have plenty of camshaft duration to get you there, but more lift is needed. I’d absolutely go with the ARP step headers that your planning, as you’ve seen from guys on CF, they pick up power. You want to be somewhere in the 12:2 to 12:4 static compression area to maximize this. Seems like you’ve been down the high-ram road before, which is not needed to get you 700 wheel, and I’m not a fan of the street manners of the high-ram anyway…the ported MSD is capable of 700 wheel and gets you terrific street manners. Go with at least a 102 TB. 3.90 gears are great for street, but hurts dyno numbers. My .02…
Back in the NA game. Boost was fun but I wanted to do an NA build again.
I picked up a pretty clean, 38k mile JSB C6z and it came with the following.
Ported MSD intake by JokerZ --- Spiral ported stock throttle body --- Vararam Air Intake --- PAC 1209x Valve Springs Johnson 2110 lifters --- ID1050X Injectors DSX Flex Fuel Kit --- Walbro 525 Hellcat Fuel Pump Meziere Billet Mechanical Water Pump --- Prospeed Coolant Fans Dewitt's Radiator (Not Installed) JS Alternator 250amp Hinson Motor/Trans Mounts Monster LT1-S Twin Disk Clutch with Lightened Flywheel Mighty Mouse Race Catch Can --- LME Ported Brodix BR7 Heads Custom Camshaft (253/263 .666 111+5) --- ATI Balancer ARP Headstuds Pfadt Tri-y Headers and Catted X Pipe --- Akropovic Axle Back Exhaust --- DSS Carbon Fiber Driveshaft RPM Stage 4 Diff with 3.90 Gears MGW Shifter and Race **** New OEM Yellow Calipers SS Brake Lines Performance AFX 2-Piece Rotors (Front/Rear) Katech TI Lugnuts Bilstein Shocks
The setup in the car made 644whp/602wtq. I only got to enjoy it for about 2 weeks before I started discovering/realizing it had some issues.
First thing I noticed, the valvetrain was LOUD and on cold starts I was getting some lifter knock. I discovered that the PAC springs that are in the heads have way too much seat pressure for the lifters to hold. The Johnson lifters are rated to 420lb open pressure and the springs were shimmed for something like 540lb open. Needless to say, the springs were collapsing the lifters over night and causing them to "bounce" around till they pumped back up. Luckily this took less than a second to happen upon start up.
Second, after looking at the dyno sheet, I knew something was off. With this cam, power should have been peaking up around 65-6700rpm. Instead, it was only peaking around 6100rpm. The rev limit was set to 7700rpm and I tried to make a pull up over 7000 and it just fell on its face. The lifters were also collapsing up top and causing valve float (something I am very familiar with). I could feel this on the shift. It would hesitate real fast before the power came back. This only happened at full throttle and/or a higher RPM shift.
So, rather than take my chances on the engine how it was set up, I decided to pull it apart and change it all, for the most part.
Here is a list of the changes happening. (The dashes in the original list indicate things I am changing or removing all together)
ARH 2" to 2-1/8" stepped headers with 3.5" collectors Holley Hi Ram base with Shrear fabricated lid A different, custom camshaft. Not able to share specs at this time. Just know its more duration, lift, and a wider LSA Send heads to WCCH to mill further for more compression Johnson ST2126LSR Lifters Katech Red Pump 108mm Throttle Body 4.5" Air Intake with Halltech filter Alky Control Meth Kit Meziere Electric Water Pump GZ Motorsports Vacuum Pump Corsa Extreme Exhaust
My goal with this is to make as close to, or over 700whp. I'm guesstimating torque will fall in the 550-560wtq range. Decided not to go solid roller at this time. Possibly going to start building a second motor (very slowly) on the side that will get all the goodies.
Thoughts?
Suggestions?
When you say "Shearer Fab upper", are you referring to the surge tank style one? If so, that does not work well on NA applications and that is per Shearer themselves. They do work extremely well in boosted application, though. I would have a look at the BTR Trinity LS7 intake. Fits a Vette and makes serious power. Have seen them out dyno a ported Hi Ram, ported LSXTR, etc. FWIW, I would cut the bullshit and go solid roller. The rest of the combo is killer.
I also agree 100% w/ what double006 said, if you do stay hyd.
.
Last edited by DualQuadDave; 03-24-2022 at 02:21 PM.
When you say "Shearer Fab upper", are you referring to the surge tank style one? If so, that does not work well on NA applications and that is per Shearer themselves. They do work extremely well in boosted application, though. I would have a look at the BTR Trinity LS7 intake. Fits a Vette and makes serious power. Have seen them out dyno a ported Hi Ram, ported LSXTR, etc. FWIW, I would cut the bullshit and go solid roller. The rest of the combo is killer.
I also agree 100% w/ what 006 said, if you do stay hyd.
I also agree w/ Chenille, but I would not go less than a 103mm TB, and would go as big as you can fit 105/108mm if you can. Have seen 112mm's on NA big inch builds.
I agree totally, but I’m not sure you can open up the MSD throat…if Jay even stays MSD…big IF…to support much more than a 102. If getting away from the MSD, by all means, go as big as possible.
I agree totally, but I’m not sure you can open up the MSD throat…if Jay even stays MSD…big IF…to support much more than a 102. If getting away from the MSD, by all means, go as big as possible.
Totally correct, I had edited my post, but you were faster on the draw. I do think I saw he sold the MSD on the Vette forum, though. I think that thing making that much power through a 90mm and with a valvetrain issue shows the potential of what is there. I think it has some serious potential to get to the power he wants without a lot of mods. I don't even know If I would change the intake, if he still has it. I would try the bigger TB first and fix the valvetrain and see what happens.
You may look at the Johnson 2116 lifters a lot less headache on adjusting and can handle more spring pressure (500+ pounds). They have a plunger travel of .093 and have an adjustment window of .025 to .045. The other ones you have you listed need an adjustable system or like 8 different pushrod lengths and to go through that hassle for really not much or if any gain. I always see on the Corvette Forum guys have pushrod issues and not running right as they did not set it up correct or exact which is the problem here with a non-adjustable valve train. I run the 2116 for the last 7 years and have 440 pounds of pressure open. I do have titanium intakes and hollow stem exhaust valves. If you run more cam and or shave the heads you better check piston to valve clearance before you go too far. A lot of good pieces you have there.
I already have the 2126 so I'm just going to stick with them. Ordered one of those MS spring loaded pushrod length checkers.
Originally Posted by Che70velle
Jay, the list of mods currently on the car is impressive. My opinion…which is worthless…is that you have a badly mismatched valvespring and lifter combo. You are correct, the lifters are collapsing while sitting, and at high rpm, they have zero chance of standing up. That’s where your power is going. You have plenty of camshaft duration to get you there, but more lift is needed. I’d absolutely go with the ARP step headers that your planning, as you’ve seen from guys on CF, they pick up power. You want to be somewhere in the 12:2 to 12:4 static compression area to maximize this. Seems like you’ve been down the high-ram road before, which is not needed to get you 700 wheel, and I’m not a fan of the street manners of the high-ram anyway…the ported MSD is capable of 700 wheel and gets you terrific street manners. Go with at least a 102 TB. 3.90 gears are great for street, but hurts dyno numbers. My .02…
The PO was unaware of the limitations of the 2110 lifters when he put it together. I saw a bunch of signs that led me to discover the error and I'm glad I did before something catastrophic happened.
I've already ordered or have most of the parts on the list. The headers should be here in about a month, I hope - haha.
I've talked to WCCH about angle milling my heads down to about 53cc. This should bring static compression over 13:1 on the stock pistons. Yes, I'll be making sure clearance is all good.
I'm not sure what street manners you are referring to with the hi ram. I didn't experience any difference between the MSD and the Hi Ram when I first made that switch on my last car. I am not a fan of the MSD intake at all. I've already sold the one that was on the car.
I already have the 108mm TB that's going on and possibly will try the 112mm TB down the road to see if there are any gains there.
Hoping to still touch 700 with the 3.90s. Will be on a hub dyno. Not the exact one the car was previously tuned on but will be the same brand dyno. So numbers SHOULD be similar.
Originally Posted by DualQuadDave
When you say "Shearer Fab upper", are you referring to the surge tank style one? If so, that does not work well on NA applications and that is per Shearer themselves. They do work extremely well in boosted application, though. I would have a look at the BTR Trinity LS7 intake. Fits a Vette and makes serious power. Have seen them out dyno a ported Hi Ram, ported LSXTR, etc. FWIW, I would cut the bullshit and go solid roller. The rest of the combo is killer.
I also agree 100% w/ what double006 said, if you do stay hyd.
A friend of mine uses it on his bolt-on only 6th Gen Camaro SS and he holds the record for the fastest bolt-on only 6th Gen in the states. Assuming it works well. If that's not the case, I'm willing to consider a different option. Maybe I'll reach out to him and ask his opinion.
I did consider the BTR trinity and was actually leaning towards using it. I haven't seen very many dyno results on it though. Care to share links of what you've seen?
Not going solid roller at this time.
Originally Posted by Darth_V8r
You didn't mention rockers in your list... Did you try a lighter rocker like the YT to address the valve float at all?
Going back to the stock rocker. I know you're not a fan.
You may look at the Johnson 2116 lifters a lot less headache on adjusting and can handle more spring pressure (500+ pounds). They have a plunger travel of .093 and have an adjustment window of .025 to .045. The other ones you have you listed need an adjustable system or like 8 different pushrod lengths and to go through that hassle for really not much or if any gain. I always see on the Corvette Forum guys have pushrod issues and not running right as they did not set it up correct or exact which is the problem here with a non-adjustable valve train. I run the 2116 for the last 7 years and have 440 pounds of pressure open. I do have titanium intakes and hollow stem exhaust valves. If you run more cam and or shave the heads you better check piston to valve clearance before you go too far. A lot of good pieces you have there.
2116LSR:The #2116LSR is Johnson's slow leak down, race-style lifter set for all LS engines not running DOD/AFM. They do use a link bar, so you do not use the plastic lifter trays.
Hydraulic Roller
Link Bar
.093" Total Plunger Travel
.035" Recommended Pre-Load +-.005"
Set of 16 Lifters
Recommended for up to .700 Lift and no more than 420# open spring pressure
ST2126LSR:
Hydraulic-Roller
Will Accommodate Higher Open Spring Pressures of 500+ lb.
.058" Total Plunger Travel
.035" Recommended Pre-Load +-.005"
2126LSR:
Hydraulic Roller
Link Bar
.093" Total Plunger Travel
.035" Recommended Pre-Load +-.010"
Set of 16 Lifters
Recommended for up to .700 Lift and higher open spring pressures on street cars
No max open pressure spec on those ^
2110:
Cold forged steel body heat treated for exceptional wear resistance
Precision ground needle roller bearing with high chromium steel axle for long life and minimal friction
Cold forged extra long piston, precision ground and fitted for controlled leak down and pump up
High flow disc style quick reacting check valve for better reaction at higher RPM
Precision oil metering assuring proper oiling to the rocker arms without sacrificing oil pressure
No link bar, designed for use with stock-type trays
.045" Taller Than LS7 Lifter
.035" Recommended Pre-Load +-.010"
Not recommended for more than .630 lift and 420# open spring pressure
A friend of mine uses it on his bolt-on only 6th Gen Camaro SS and he holds the record for the fastest bolt-on only 6th Gen in the states. Assuming it works well. If that's not the case, I'm willing to consider a different option. Maybe I'll reach out to him and ask his opinion.
I did consider the BTR trinity and was actually leaning towards using it. I haven't seen very many dyno results on it though. Care to share links of what you've seen?
Not going solid roller at this time.
Nice!!! I had heard that they had a revised top, but had not actually seen one. Yes, that should run real good w/ the 108mm. The dyno tests I saw were on IG and I don't have the links anymore. They kicked me off for telling the truth too many times, lol. Check with ER, I think he ran one of the tests, if I remember right and the BTR made the most by a good margin. The HiRam is still what everything is compared too. The lid had been the worst part of it, but the Shearer looks to have fixed all that. I think you have a fantastic combo, totally shocked the stock block is hanging in there. I'd have a spare sleeved block waiting in the back for the inevitable. If you need stock rockers, I have a set of CHE'd LS7 rockers I am not going to use, after all. Also have a set of low mileage stock GM ones.
Nice!!! I had heard that they had a revised top, but had not actually seen one. Yes, that should run real good w/ the 108mm. The dyno tests I saw were on IG and I don't have the links anymore. They kicked me off for telling the truth too many times, lol. Check with ER, I think he ran one of the tests, if I remember right and the BTR made the most by a good margin. The HiRam is still what everything is compared too. The lid had been the worst part of it, but the Shearer looks to have fixed all that. I think you have a fantastic combo, totally shocked the stock block is hanging in there. I'd have a spare sleeved block waiting in the back for the inevitable. If you need stock rockers, I have a set of CHE'd LS7 rockers I am not going to use, after all. Also have a set of low mileage stock GM ones.
I went back and saw what I think you were talking about. The Surge Intake where the TB comes out of the bottom of the plenum. Definitely staying away from that on a NA setup, lol.
I saw a test he did on a LT engine. The CNC version edged out a no ported Hi Ram on that combo. I asked if the same could be found on a LS setup and he said the ported version of the Trinity actually made less power than the non-ported version on a LS3. I also saw results from that intake on a tall deck 48Xci that made 718whp or so, but the torque was way low at about 600wtq. In the end, I don't want to sacrifice a bunch of torque down low/mid-range for a few HP up top. I think the Hi Ram is the best comprise in between. Unfortunately, the hood has to be cut but it's only a $100 hood. No that big of deal, IMO. For other people, it is and I get it.
The plan is to start slowly building a sleeved, high compression shortblock on the side when this one is running. That will get a solid roller setup.
I actually acquired a set of stock rockers already. I appreciate it!
Hoping its that easy, lol. 26X/27X .670 115+6. More duration, SLIGHTLY more lift, wider LSA. A lot more overlap than the last cam too.
It is. High ram gives you rpm, which always brings numbers with it. Lift might hurt you here. .720 to .750 isn’t uncommon at all on this platform on the street, but with stock rockers, you can’t do that obviously. Give it a go. You can always go solid roller if your unhappy with the outcome, along with a nice rocker setup. Instant boost in power.
Darth was kissing 700, and if he had stuck his tongue out, he would have had it, but an oil issue arose. He’s got it repaired and should hit north of 700 with less camshaft duration than you along with an MSD.
Jay -- I know tone of voice does not convey. I was literally just busting your chops and meant it as friendly banter. I hope you took it that way.
I didn't take it any certain way, haha. Thought you were curious. But I feel comfortable still using the stock rocker with this lift. Any higher and I would have certainly looked into something different. The heads were refreshed before they went on this car and the PO didn't drive it very much.
The "basic" setup on this car, made 680whp on the car it came off, on the same dyno. Same heads, same cam, same headers. He had the ST2126LSR lifters, meth, and a Hi Ram tho. Could there be ~20whp in a cam, compression increase, larger headers? We gon' find out! It also went best of 5.3X 60-130 in good DA on the street.
So hoping to reach 700whp or better and run faster than a 5.30 60-130 on the street. I will also be installing a 2.97 ratio transmission. As long as it hooks up, this thing should fly.
03-24-2022, 05:09 AM
NA C6z Build 
