2002_TAWS6

I believe the mods for an 03 Cobra to make 600rwhp can be done just like indicated in the video (he dynoed 611rwhp and 562rwtq):

KB supercharger
Full Catleass Exhaust
JLT CAI

Thats it! Lets just say a couple of more bolt ons as well since he *might* have not included every mod he has done to his car.

See, thats exactly why I think they are bad ***!

Someone please find out how much it costs to do all of that.

Let the conversation begin

Blakbird24

iTrader: (24)

I didn't even bother to download that video...it would take days for me (I don't use the internet enough to justify broadband). But I can go by what I read. There is no way he's making that power RELIABLY with only those mods...do the math, the boost level required to get that kind of power out of that engine would make the thing a timebomb. No way. There's more to it.

Also, you just got done saying how you can't make more than 500bhp in an LS1 reliably, then you show me a video with a 550bhp LS6. So then why not just drop some CNC'd LS6 heads and a custom ground cam on your LS1, add appropriate bolt-ons, tune and supercharge...that would make 600bhp reliably. In fact, it's been done...

http://www.supercars.net/cars/2002@$Drekar@$Firebird%20Trans%20Am%20Z15g.html

The Z15 Trans Am. 600bhp/575lbft on pump gas. That particular car survived rigorous tests and trial races and gave no problems whatsoever. Smooth idle, good response, well-mannered all around. Much more comfortable than a Cobra I might add. Plus if you factor in gearing and suspension designs, the 600bhp T/A will take that 611bhp Cobra quite solidly.

As for price, the Z15 "ain't cheap" as they say...but i'm betting niether is that Cobra. Until we have evidence either way we can't say much more.

Last but definetly not least...what's most important...take both cars for a cruise on the strip...which one is going to get the ladies attention? Not a tough call there.

I rest my case.

VoodooWS6

Plain and simple! WS6 ARE one of the best looking rides out there..Even compared to a $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$European car..

2002_TAWS6

You keep missing the points every time slow down buddy. Where you going.. the party just started.

1) that Z06 was SUPERCHARGED. Those cars come with 360hp+ at the wheels stock. They can actually handle less #s of boost than LS1s because their heads have higher compression. But when you do the math Z06s can handle 6#s of boost easily reliable in my book and thats 500rwhp and *if* they choose to go with 8#s of boost (just like the owner in the video) thats 550rwhp with bolt ons unlike our low 463rwhp capability on 8#s of boost. Now you asked "why not get a set of LS6 heads?".. Dude the supercharger is part of the purchase to make 550rwhp!! That is going to be WAY more expensive than modding a cobra. Trust me, if it takes 6000 for a complete heads and cam package, it should cost cheaper than that to go 600rwhp on an 03 Cobra. Remember your selling your stock supercharger and dont even need a clutch!!

2) The 03 Cobra motor comes FORGED from the factory. Yes your right that guy is pushing 19#s of boost!! It sure is a lot. But did you know that GTs can handle 10#s of boost easily? They come with 9:1 CR unlike LS1 and LS6 cars. Dude you must be noticing already: People are out there and doing that! Bolt on 03 cobras are out there dynoing 600 at the wheels and are still proven to be reliable. Dont forget those cars are barely a year old! Trust me the should handle more than 600rwhp for sure. They are still no where near testing its limits. If stock 01 mustang GTs could handle 10#s of boost I see no reason why the same BUT forged block could not handle 19#s of boost. Hell if you think about it the car came with a supercharger and warranty. The motor is gotta be really good. Ill see if someone knows Griffin (the owner of the cobra in the video) and hope he can explain a little about his setup and reliability.

hahaha come on guys... Im not saying I'd still chose an 03 Cobra over my car (because I too love the WS6 look and is a trans am guy) but come on.. what a way to "rest your case".

You asked:
"which one is going to get the ladies attention? Not a tough call there."

Try that line at the drag strip and find out!! Unfortunately sometimes its the faster cars

You know what. Ill be fair enough to find all the parts needed to make 600 at the wheels on an 03 cobra and find out how much it costs. Then Ill find owners pushing that much hp at the wheels and invite them to this thread.

Ill keep you guys updated on what happens. Maybe we could stop arguing and just find out the truth from real people that are doing that.

Blakbird24

iTrader: (24)

I'm a bit confused by this statement...are you saying an H/C package for a Cobra would be cheaper than an LS1? So ONE cam and a set of 2V heads more expensive than FOUR cams and 4V heads? NOT A CHANCE. Also, as for the supercharger...the Cobra is $3500 more to begin with. That's more than you'll get for that stock blower.

Yeah barely a year old...and your saying they're reliable. How do we know? We don't YET.

[QUOTE=2002_TAWS6]hahaha come on guys... Im not saying I'd still chose an 03 Cobra over my car (because I too love the WS6 look and is a trans am guy) but come on.. what a way to "rest your case". [/quote

Good to hear it. You'd have to be crazy to trade an LS1 for a Ford.

I don't go for the "fast" women. You can have them. Every girlfriend i've ever had is scared to death of anything with over 200hp. In most girl's mind's it's style that counts...that's what makes a "hot car".

Works for me.

2002_TAWS6

No. I do apologize if my typing is confusing you. I was referring to a H/C fbody package to a 600rwhp Cobra package just like what was said earlier - as I agree with this guy:

Well thats true too. But as far as I know the guy pushing 611rwhp in his 03 Cobra should also have a 100 shot for those "just incase" occasions but ill double check on that one.

The WS6 is a HOT car in my book and I do agree with you 100% although I do find myself maybe a little biased because I do own one. Let me try to get someone pushing 600s in an 03 cobra in here. I do wanna know how much it costs for such a package as well.

We need to listen from 03 cobra owners and see what they say. I would download that video if I were you even if it would take a day. It is one of the best videos i've honestly seen so far.

2002_TAWS6

Damn.. no one is responding to my PMs...

transamman400

iTrader: (1)

Think about it this way...for all the unreliable LS1 blower motors out there, there obviously had to be something done wrong since there are just as many reliable ones. Everyone goes off doing their own thing, and they go about it with different mindsets. Ford had time to research and figure out how to balance power with reliability. Unless a company with a lot of experience builds the FI motor, there's gonna be a lot of room for error. Some people might skimp in places, some might use cheap parts, some might have half-par people install the stuff, some people might do their own installation that might lead to unexpected problems due to something that might have been overlooked. Companies have foresight and research and know what works, people can be a lot different. Some are happy with what they have done, some would do a lot different if they could start over. Plus it is cheaper to mass produce cars with superchargers then to install them as aftermarket in a varying amount of cars. You need to have a higher price on a unit for sale to make a profit with smaller numbers. Ford can spread out the cost of supercharging the engine over the profits of selling a lot of the vehicles equipped with them. It's like buying pop, cheaper in bulk. Anything can be made reliable. Anything can be made cheap. It's trying to find a balance in the two. In the case of this...I would say the Cobra and the WS6 aren't comparable. Your basing info on tried and true Ford components, against aftermarket accessories like Vortech and ProCharger. Although I'm sure they have been tested on WS6s to see how they run, they don't need to worry as much about reliability as GM or Ford does, although I'm sure they are reasonably concerned. Also, the variables in the other mods done to the vehicle can offset the reliability of the supercharger put on due to a number of factors like how well it was installed and what things were already done to the motor or how good of shape it was. Your putting a supercharger on a motor that has already been worn and driven, no two people are gonna drive alike, and no two motors that are supercharged will have the same amount of miles at the time of the installation. One motor could be in better shape then the other. There are a few who have gotten it down right and have fine daily drivers. They must have found the right balance between performance and reliability. In the end...you are comparing a factory configured, Ford Motor Co. sponsored, tried-and-true supercharged engine to a privately made motor. I would say very few supercharged motors are alike very much in terms of mods and setup. So I'll make a simple illustration.

Comparing the SVT Cobra to the Trans Am WS6 is like comparing a ready to order pizza with a homemade one. You don't know how the homemade one will turn out, but the ready to order one will always be the same taste, same bake style. The homemade one will always be different from one to the other, some will turn out better then others.

Blakbird24

iTrader: (24)

You make some great points...about both cars in stock form. Will an 03 Cobra beat a WS6 all things being equal? Not from my experience (or the specs posted by Car&Driver). Our argument though is mostly about modded cars...and even if you want to say that since the modded cobra is still using the factory blower, then it's more reliable...not so, because once you change that pulley, you change everything. There's not alot of difference in the blower itself...just how fast it spins and how the air it moves affects the engine. Yes I agree with most of what you said about the Cobra motor working well together because it's using components that were designed to work together (at least we hope that's the case...but you never know), however they were designed to work together AS IS...not modified.

99WS6LS1T/A

Opinons???

1. You pay alot more for a Cobra Like $ 37K

2. I paid $15K for my 99 WS6 over a year ago. Who would win if I spent the other remaning $22K on my car??? Doesn't take a rocket scientist.

3. I've seen videos of 600 h.p. 03 Cobras being outrun by 550 h.p. Vettes. I give these cars my respect, but it's just another hot rod. When you start modding it becomes a money pit b/c weak links start to break.

4. To each his own. I don't hate stangs b/c I'm a former owner of quite a few of them, I just woke up and realized that the LS1/LS6 is BADASS!!!!!!

transamman400

iTrader: (1)

"Our argument though is mostly about modded cars...and even if you want to say that since the modded cobra is still using the factory blower, then it's more reliable...not so, because once you change that pulley, you change everything."

Good point. The reliability of the vehicle being modified is dependant on how well the owner had the job done. A properly built LS1 supercharged motor will be just as reliable as the Cobra's motor properly built. Problems are caused by...well, problems. Put on a pulley that messes up your setup, it won't be reliable. That goes for the Cobra and the LS1. And part of my point with what I said about them being stock...is that I mean you could compare the two IF the LS1 could come from the factory supercharged. Then if one had a known defect/disadvantage over the other, THEN I would agree with that statement. LS1s weren't built with the idea of handling all that boost. Sure, a Mustang GT can handle 10#s of boost as it is, but you were making a power and reliability comparison. A charged GT's power levels won't compare at all to a charged LS1's power levels. So now the issue is, how easy is it to mod one motor over the other? Well first, You can't compare a N/A motor to a supercharged one. You pay the premium of the supercharger in the Cobra's higher sticker then a WS6 or SS. Therefore, you have to rule out the cost of the supercharger otherwise that would be unfair. Now you have to give the LS1 all the things the Cobra has to make this a fair comparison like forged internals. With a proper set up, how can this not be reliable? And anything the Cobra can do, our charged LS1 can do as good or better.

Otherwise, you're comparing one supercharged setup to multiple supercharged setups in reliability and power. One guy's ATI Procharged WS6 on 9#s of boost with forged internals, Spec 3 clutch M6, shifting at around 6700 to a guy with a Z28 with a Vortech running 12#s of boost with an A4 with a poor tune, manual shifting at 7000. Who's do you think will last longer? Some people don't do all that's needed for a reliable AND quick car. The rearends on both are pretty crappy, so no advantage there to begin with. So, if the LS1 has forged internals (like the Cobra) reasonable boost levels (saying the Cobra and LS1 were equal levels) and the installation was done well on the LS1 and Cobra equally modded with proper work, again how could there be any difference in reliability? The LS1 for sure would have it beat in power, as the Cobras had 320 hp CRANK and the LS1 puts down around 300 WHEEL hp. N/A for N/A the SS and WS6 showed the Cobra what's up, wouldn't be any different mod for mod if the same mods were done. Not bashing Mustangs, just making a point.

beardWS6

iTrader: (1)

I`m not scared of a modded Cobra. My car was put together at MTI and is safely tuned to be reliable. I have been driving her for 2 years now. Granted I haven`t raced her at the track but twice and I have traction problems but that can be fixed easy. I drive my car everyday and get 17-25hwy with fuel. So you can build a good running LS1 and make it a daily driver. Besides I love the sound of my X1 cam over a blower! and filling the bottle isn`t that bad. I usually don`t need it to race most cars. Just a few. I have maybe run 3 bottles in her since I built her. And she runs good from a roll!! Full A/C and all. My race weight is about 3800lbs with me. I love it!!!

2002_TAWS6

You guys are TOTALLY missing the point!

BeardWS6, you have a fast ride and I admire it, but can MTI or anyone else out there make 600rwhp EVERY DAY DAMN DAY WITHOUT changing the block? NO... see you make 414rwhp (like your sig says) WITHOUT spray not 600rwhp... u will drive a 414rwhp car going to work u CANT drive a 550rwhp WS6 to work (unless you spray ur way to work ) .... I mean seriously it costs $4 on nitrous everytime you do a nitrous run. Not to mention its a bitch to refill the bottle (trust me I have one too! Im also willing to beat 600rwhp and I know it will not happen without nitrous unless I spend at least 9000 on a block and supercharger.

see what i mean?

Now please do not compare a cobra to a Z06! your making it sound stupid really... i mean OK a supercharged Z06 can make 550rwhp and that can beat a 600rwhp cobra, I agree.. but whoever brought it up made it sound like its pathetic .. Are you saying the Cobra is not doing well???

For gods sake im doing 380rwhp on my cam only bolt on setup and i raced my roomate who dynoed 363rwhp in his 02 Z06. We even raced at 3000rpms on 4th ONLY to clearly see which car is more powerful and he inched away. We raced in 4th gear only to compare and to throw gearing advantage out of the equation.. In other words his weight, drag coefficient.. air resistance and all that crap pulled harder than my 380rwhp WS6 even when he was doing only 363rwhp and I had a MUCH better curve.. it was not just a 550rwhp VETTE that beat the cobra, it was a Z06.. Now when I raced the same Z06 from a 2nd gear roll he put 3 car lengths on me but the time we hit high 4th gear. Is my car doing crappy? NO! Im just comparing it to the wrong car.

Anyway, lets leave the Z06 out of this and get back to our discussion comparing a WS6 and a o3 cobra performance wise..

can you make 600rwhp EVERYDAY without having to change the block? no damn way.. Cobras can make it WEAVING THRU TRAFFIC! show me how you can do that with nitrous

I never said a 550rwhp WS6 might not beat a 600rwhp cobra. What I said was that it sucks that we have to spray our way to beat one given both of them are ON THE STOCK BLOCK. I know we can change the block and i know we can buy a blower...

im talking STOCK block we will never be as powerful everyday..

wouldnt it be awesome to slap a supercharger on our cars that would make 550rwhp? YES.. will it happen? not a chance in hell unless you dont give a damn about reliability.

Theres no way around this discussion really.. i mean sure you can beat a 600rwhp cobra if you have like a heads and cam setup and spray.. but can you do it without spray and without a block/stroker upgrade? remember they can do 600rwhp EVERY DAMN DAY..

Guys seriously.. dont be too biased here.. im not a cobra lover but i appreciate the performance in both cars

beardWS6

iTrader: (1)

I agree with wicked! My car is a A4 with 12bolt and all. Had a guy with 6sp and same set-up tuned just the same as mine and pulled 444rwhp. Thing is I beat cars at the track and on the street with more RWHP than mine. If I was to tune mine for just motor I could get another 15-25rwhp just the way I set. I run mid 11`s now on motor as it is with lots of wheel spin. I`m working on that. I have seen modded LS1`s that run 490-alittle over 500rwhp beat a Cobra with 550rwhp. LS1`s run better with less rwhp. But it sounds to me you have set your mine on a Cobra being the **** no matter what anyone says. So end of story!

2002Z06yellow

I have a very easy way to end this debate:
how much would it cost to run 600 RWHP on an LS1 car daily on pump gas?( please list ur mods too)

cobras can do it for $10,000 and no internal work(AND I MEAN NO INTERNAL WORK, not even a FU*$&%$ cam)

i am sorry to hurt your egos guys but the LS1 got spanked with the new cobra motor... NA aspirated we rule but their motor is setup for FI(it can handle pressure better than ours) .. best you can do is hope for a new camaro/trans am that will spank the cobra..

hell even if i was wrong about the internal work part cant you see the point trying to be made?

93TAWicked1

iTrader: (28)

WTF difference does it make if you have internal work or not?? To me that is the stupidest part of this arguement. 10,000 hmmmmm if all we are talking is 600rwhp not the rest of the drivetrian. Its doable. Agreed Rob raymer has more resources than the average enthusiast but I doubt he had a whole lot more than that into the turbo he put on the 700+rwhp Formula. (again just turbo not drivetrain or anything)

And there IS A F*&^%G difference between peak HP and how fast a car goes down the track.

Its not that the Cobra isn't bad ***, its not that it can't be modded and produce great numbers. But its not the end all of baddness that some people portray it as. I think that Ford finally produced an EQUAL to the LS1. So it finally comes down to taste more than performance. Although every mustang I've driven with more than 6k is a rattle box.

And no 2002z06 I don't understand the point to be made. 10K is alot of money for JUST ENGINE. The reason you can get 40k into a car is the drivetrain engine, Tires etc. Now if you could 600 with headers and pulley change then I might be seriously impressed. But when your talking about changing the blower out to get that.... **** I'd just buy an 01 Cobra for cheap, Rebuild the bottom end with forged slugs and buy that blowzilla for it wouldn't that make more damn sense???

But then you could do the same to an 01 LS1 as well....Again not disputing that it isn't sweet but when you start modding its all different stock doesn't really matter. You have to compare individual cars not cars. Shoot there are 10 second hondas wether we like to admit it or not.

And the only reliable stock internal motor I know of that pumps out 600rwhp is a Supra

99WS6LS1T/A

Amen!!!!

2002Z06yellow

so 10000 is not doable becuase that includes the drivetrain... btw we didnt factor in selling the stock cobra blower..

2002_TAWS6

finally someone is getting my point. I would think it can be done for less than $10,000 reliably but still have no idea exactly. Wish someone with a 600rwhp Cobra can join and just tell us the damn story by now. So far *I* would think for $10,000 it could include all drivetrain upgrades, all necessary parts (supercharger bolt ons etc), as well as tuning and installation of all parts - ofcourse thats if you sell the stock supercharger and other unwanted components (stock manifolds..etc). Basically, if you purchase an 03 cobra stock you should be able to accomplish a 600rwhp daily driver project with $10,000 required. Please correct me if im wrong here.

I think its bad *** that you could go 600rwhp without having to even change the cam. Some have gone that far without even changing the stock clutch in those damn cobras .

The only reason I mentioned no block/internal upgrades required for this debate is because I wanted to prove a 600rwhp project can be done for way cheaper going the Cobra route - with the price of car NOT included here.

Now 600rwhp daily driving in a WS6 requires building a bottom end because even 550rwhp on spray (100 shot over typical 450rwhp H&C combo) is pushing our luck (let alone driving 600rwhp every damn day supercharged).

heres the main argument:

In reality, if you were to purchase a completely stock 2002 WS6 and want to build a reliable 600rwhp daily driver project car how much money will you have to invest including all necessary upgrades seriously? $10,000? $15,000? $20,000?

What about an 03 cobra?

Im not saying I have a point and whatever I say must be right. By all means, please correct me if Im wrong here. Just thought it would be way cheaper to do 600rwhp (daily) if your car comes with a supercharger and a forged motor stock and still maintain reliability.

whppdyomnkyazz

i jsut typed a long reply and since i just registered it F'd me, so heres the long and the short of it, 600 RWHP 03 cobra, full exhaust 1200, procharger kit w/good tune 5000... 6200... your LS1s are way more expensive sorry kids, and yes that is reliable power that the cams or heads have not even been touched to make... yeah stock longblock... wheres the LS1 that does that?? oh no where... tho i like me a nice chevy, and i agree the TA's are sexy, the cobra is sleek too in its own right, but the cobra's stock engine can handle and produce 1000 hp... those of you that said you could do all this crap to your car and beat an 03 with 600 rw... you are no longer reliable , and if you are, you spent way more cash... dont give me this BS: "i bought mine used for 15K give me the rest of the cash yada yada ill fix mineup yada turbo yada lingenfelter yada yada" ok dude... these cobras are brand new.. cant pick up a used one yet for that cheap... cant help it chevy finally shot the wounded horse, tho she was a fine mare in her time... the cobra from the factory in 03 (dont listen to that ignorant *** that said DOHC cobra motors are all the same from year to year, they just upgraded the beef, before cobra owners got hyperPATHETIC pistons and powdered rods and a forged crank) now they get the same crank, forged manley h beams, forged pistons... so yeah its a beast, 6 bolt mains.. yes you heard me, 4 bolt mains with cross bolts... aka a strong **** and yes it can take 19#s of boost... that is childs play... anyhoo... there are lots of stupid comments on this thread about the potential of the cobra vs. the WS6... and please dont even bring up the vette again, tahts a whole different class, the closest thing ford makes to compete is the GT-40... and we all know you dont wanna line the vette up against that...in any field, looks, speed, whatever... only thing you could come up with is you have ac and sound system... woopdy doo arent we talkin about performance here??? i am a ford guy, and yes i know stangs like the back of my hand, ill watch this post and try to reply, fire away

oh yeah, you apall me to say that pushrod is more reliable than ohc... what are you?? ahh nevermind that, but ohc is much better valvetrain period, for rpm, life etc.. its the new technology...ok wouldnt we all agree that toyotas freakin run forever, just change the oil at 3K and stand on the pedal right??? ok they all use ohc engines... coincidence??? i think not.... so your argument about reliability pushrod vs. OHC is flat out rotten... get real... granted ford and toyota are two different animals, they both share the same tech in that area, there is a reason ford went to that when they redesigned a new engine... chevy's have been hittin off the same cylinders since the 40s... granted yall have changed heads cams induction and slight mods to block etc... its just an old horse that is being beaten to death, but look for chevy to pull its head out of its *** in the next 10 years...(i hope)