Need Info on 86 Camaro (limited edition?)
03-06-2020, 10:30 AM
#21
Without an RPO sticker and or build sheet to back that up, I don't believe it. Even if you bought the car new, I'd still want to see documentation. Even if you are being truthful and not remembering inaccurately, there must be another explanation. It might have been a dealer installed option. After all, dealerships have been modding vehicles and offering all kinds of special packages of their own to drive sales for decades. That's the only way I could believe that was true. People who ordered their cars new back then all attest to being unable to spec a both an L98 and T5 from the factory. I know two employees from the Norwood plant in 1987 that attest to this as well. One of them ordered a Formula that year when the L98 was introduced and couldn't get it that way.
The reason the L98 and T5 were never paired together was also generally well known. While the horsepower figures for an N10 dual cat car with an LB9 and the L98 were similar, the torque on the L98 was considerably higher. It was believed that if the two were paired together, it would lead to broken transmissions and a ton of warranty claims. It's well known that the T5 doesn't hold up to power.
I know you brought up having the car in 1989, but the production data for that year and all others for that matter is known and well documented. Not a single L98 / T5 car was ever shipped from GM according to the information we have. Thirdgen.org is the largest repository of information on those cars and people make fantastic claims about what they had in the past all the time on that site. Yet, not a single person has ever been able to provide a shred of evidence that even one L98 car ever came with a T5 transmission from the factory.
The reason the L98 and T5 were never paired together was also generally well known. While the horsepower figures for an N10 dual cat car with an LB9 and the L98 were similar, the torque on the L98 was considerably higher. It was believed that if the two were paired together, it would lead to broken transmissions and a ton of warranty claims. It's well known that the T5 doesn't hold up to power.
I know you brought up having the car in 1989, but the production data for that year and all others for that matter is known and well documented. Not a single L98 / T5 car was ever shipped from GM according to the information we have. Thirdgen.org is the largest repository of information on those cars and people make fantastic claims about what they had in the past all the time on that site. Yet, not a single person has ever been able to provide a shred of evidence that even one L98 car ever came with a T5 transmission from the factory.
03-09-2020, 12:43 PM
#23
Not likely.
If you mean to say that he will refute what I've said, then best of luck to him. Anecdotes aren't evidence. Build sheets and RPO stickers are required to prove the existence of any cars with a configuration outside the known limitations or production figures we have for third generation F-body cars. Furthermore, even said documentation would potentially be questionable without other documentation to go with it. Windows stickers, ordering forms, etc. would go a long way to proving such claims.
Thirdgen.org has been around since the early days of the internet. I've been a member of it for over 15 years. Many people have made various claims about having XYZ car despite production data and supporting documentation which tends to disprove such cars exist. Occasionally some elusive car is found, but most of the claims go unverified and are never taken seriously.
Common claims:
1.) Chevrolet 350 engines (L98) being available before 1987. Again, there are rumored 1986 test cars but absolutely no proof that these exist or were ever purchased by anyone in the general public. Test cars were destroyed more often than not.
2.) People often claim that the T5 was available with a Chevrolet 350 CID (L98) engine. This claim has been made more often than probably any other. To date, not a single one of these claims has ever been proven. Not only are RPO stickers, build sheets and other documentation never produced, but casting numbers on cars so equipped has always shown that the Chevrolet 350's in question were always swaps. Even if a period correct engine was found, the VIN on the engine never matches the car's VIN. In some cases, its the other way around with a T5 swapped into an automatic car. Again, no evidence has ever been produced to back up such claims.
This thread over at Thirdgen.org refutes both claims.
Some site that the SLP Firehawk could be equipped with a 350 engine and a manual transmission as evidence to support the claim. However, the Firehawk was not a factory car in the strictest sense. It was a car that SLP modified. The car also used the Corvette ZF6 transmission and not the T5. Again, this exception does not prove the statement. The T5 isn't a ZF6 and was never offered with the L98.
The reason why GM never put a T5 behind an L98 are debatable. There are three main theories. 1.) GM couldn't certify it for emissions purposes. I don't know that I believe this, but it's something that often gets tossed around. 2.) The T5 couldn't handle the L98's torque and was likely to break. Given how easily these broke behind 305's, this is believable. 3.) It would have put the car too close to the performance of the Corvette.
Certification for emissions isn't a process I fully understand. CAFE standards and emissions crap are things that have to be dealt with. Exactly what would have prevented certification in this situation is unknown to me. Again, it isn't my theory, but it's stated a lot as a potential reason by people who may be more well versed on the topic than I am. To give you an example of how tricky that certification could be, some years of the Trans Am/GTA could be had with the factory T-Tops and an L98 engine and some couldn't. Weight was the reason for this as it put their fuel economy too low. The Camaro was different in this sense because Camaro's were slightly lighter than their Firebird / Trans Am / GTA counterparts.
The reliability of the T5 was questionable behind LB9 equipped 305 TPI cars. As a result, the added torque of the L98 was very likely to cause warranty issues. Especially when the cars were driven aggressively, which was a likely scenario. Lastly, the statement about putting the F-Body close to the Corvette doesn't hold water. There were times when the F-body exceeded the performance of the Corvette. In such cases GM would simply underrate the Trans Am or the Camaro even though it was still faster. We saw this with the 1989 20th anniversary Turbo Trans Am. It was underrated from the factory and had better track times than the Corvettes of the day.
So, if your boy wants to refute the data, he's going to need (at a minimum) a shot of the vehicle's VIN which shows the appropriate check digit. He will then need to provide an intact RPO sticker with the VIN to verify its from the same car. This RPO sticker will require the MM5 RPO code. A build sheet for the car would also be acceptable proof. If such a car turned out to exist, it would be like finding the holy grail in the thirdgen F-body community. It would also be something a collector might be willing to pay serious money for given that no such car has been confirmed to exist in the the four decades these cars have been around.
If you mean to say that he will refute what I've said, then best of luck to him. Anecdotes aren't evidence. Build sheets and RPO stickers are required to prove the existence of any cars with a configuration outside the known limitations or production figures we have for third generation F-body cars. Furthermore, even said documentation would potentially be questionable without other documentation to go with it. Windows stickers, ordering forms, etc. would go a long way to proving such claims.
Thirdgen.org has been around since the early days of the internet. I've been a member of it for over 15 years. Many people have made various claims about having XYZ car despite production data and supporting documentation which tends to disprove such cars exist. Occasionally some elusive car is found, but most of the claims go unverified and are never taken seriously.
Common claims:
1.) Chevrolet 350 engines (L98) being available before 1987. Again, there are rumored 1986 test cars but absolutely no proof that these exist or were ever purchased by anyone in the general public. Test cars were destroyed more often than not.
2.) People often claim that the T5 was available with a Chevrolet 350 CID (L98) engine. This claim has been made more often than probably any other. To date, not a single one of these claims has ever been proven. Not only are RPO stickers, build sheets and other documentation never produced, but casting numbers on cars so equipped has always shown that the Chevrolet 350's in question were always swaps. Even if a period correct engine was found, the VIN on the engine never matches the car's VIN. In some cases, its the other way around with a T5 swapped into an automatic car. Again, no evidence has ever been produced to back up such claims.
This thread over at Thirdgen.org refutes both claims.
Some site that the SLP Firehawk could be equipped with a 350 engine and a manual transmission as evidence to support the claim. However, the Firehawk was not a factory car in the strictest sense. It was a car that SLP modified. The car also used the Corvette ZF6 transmission and not the T5. Again, this exception does not prove the statement. The T5 isn't a ZF6 and was never offered with the L98.
The reason why GM never put a T5 behind an L98 are debatable. There are three main theories. 1.) GM couldn't certify it for emissions purposes. I don't know that I believe this, but it's something that often gets tossed around. 2.) The T5 couldn't handle the L98's torque and was likely to break. Given how easily these broke behind 305's, this is believable. 3.) It would have put the car too close to the performance of the Corvette.
Certification for emissions isn't a process I fully understand. CAFE standards and emissions crap are things that have to be dealt with. Exactly what would have prevented certification in this situation is unknown to me. Again, it isn't my theory, but it's stated a lot as a potential reason by people who may be more well versed on the topic than I am. To give you an example of how tricky that certification could be, some years of the Trans Am/GTA could be had with the factory T-Tops and an L98 engine and some couldn't. Weight was the reason for this as it put their fuel economy too low. The Camaro was different in this sense because Camaro's were slightly lighter than their Firebird / Trans Am / GTA counterparts.
The reliability of the T5 was questionable behind LB9 equipped 305 TPI cars. As a result, the added torque of the L98 was very likely to cause warranty issues. Especially when the cars were driven aggressively, which was a likely scenario. Lastly, the statement about putting the F-Body close to the Corvette doesn't hold water. There were times when the F-body exceeded the performance of the Corvette. In such cases GM would simply underrate the Trans Am or the Camaro even though it was still faster. We saw this with the 1989 20th anniversary Turbo Trans Am. It was underrated from the factory and had better track times than the Corvettes of the day.
So, if your boy wants to refute the data, he's going to need (at a minimum) a shot of the vehicle's VIN which shows the appropriate check digit. He will then need to provide an intact RPO sticker with the VIN to verify its from the same car. This RPO sticker will require the MM5 RPO code. A build sheet for the car would also be acceptable proof. If such a car turned out to exist, it would be like finding the holy grail in the thirdgen F-body community. It would also be something a collector might be willing to pay serious money for given that no such car has been confirmed to exist in the the four decades these cars have been around.
Last edited by Spamfritter; 03-09-2020 at 01:20 PM.
