Is this guy from Crutchfield right?
03-02-2012, 03:24 PM
#1
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Is this guy from Crutchfield right? oK so i want to replace my front door speakers (98) ta with some Alpine SPR-60C R SERIES. He told me in order to get the full sound out of these that I will need to bypass the factory Amp. Is he correct?
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03-02-2012, 07:54 PM
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is the facory amp 2ohm or 4ohm? what are the speakers? prepare to pay a premium for Crutchfield. 99% of the time you can get a better deal from a sponsor or somewhere else.
03-02-2012, 08:13 PM
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The moonsoon from a 98 trans am.... I dont know the ohms. I was looking at the alpine r series component 6.5 spr-60c for the front doors. I was not going to buy them from Crutchfield, I was just asking some questions and he stated that I could not run those of the moonsoon amp. I dont know why.
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03-07-2012, 01:01 PM
#8
The guy from Crutchfield is full of crap. Oh sorry, let's just say he is wrong. You may have to do some tweaking to get the tweeters to mount properly in the existing spots but those components will work fine with the Monsoon system. The Monsoon system is already wired for components so it will be simple to connect them.
03-07-2012, 01:50 PM
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The guy from Crutchfield is full of crap. Oh sorry, let's just say he is wrong. You may have to do some tweaking to get the tweeters to mount properly in the existing spots but those components will work fine with the Monsoon system. The Monsoon system is already wired for components so it will be simple to connect them.
03-07-2012, 02:14 PM
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People will disagree but my rule of thumb is if you're putting in new component speakers:
Just wire them in if you're using the Monsoon, and rely on the simple factory filters for greatest efficiency.
If you have an aftermarket amp, use the external crossover modules supplied with the speakers since you can afford the power loss for better filtering.
Whatever you do, do NOT leave the factory filter modules in line with the aftermarket crossovers, running them both at the same time. Use one or the other, not both.
Just wire them in if you're using the Monsoon, and rely on the simple factory filters for greatest efficiency.
If you have an aftermarket amp, use the external crossover modules supplied with the speakers since you can afford the power loss for better filtering.
Whatever you do, do NOT leave the factory filter modules in line with the aftermarket crossovers, running them both at the same time. Use one or the other, not both.
03-07-2012, 03:53 PM
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People will disagree but my rule of thumb is if you're putting in new component speakers:
Just wire them in if you're using the Monsoon, and rely on the simple factory filters for greatest efficiency.
If you have an aftermarket amp, use the external crossover modules supplied with the speakers since you can afford the power loss for better filtering.
Whatever you do, do NOT leave the factory filter modules in line with the aftermarket crossovers, running them both at the same time. Use one or the other, not both.
Just wire them in if you're using the Monsoon, and rely on the simple factory filters for greatest efficiency.
If you have an aftermarket amp, use the external crossover modules supplied with the speakers since you can afford the power loss for better filtering.
Whatever you do, do NOT leave the factory filter modules in line with the aftermarket crossovers, running them both at the same time. Use one or the other, not both.
03-07-2012, 08:33 PM
#12
That guy from crutchfield was just reading whatever the "research file" for your car said. They have knowledgable staff who make the research files, then let a phone jocky read it back to the customer.
However generally speaking yes, you can just use your new components as so called direct replacement drivers for the stockers, because the stock amp has built in crossovers and runs the factory speakers "active". But those crossovers were intended for the stoch drivers and with doing it that way the new speakers might not sound any better, especially the tweeters. I'm not entirely sure on how those preset crossover points are chosen, but I would assume GM would take the time to make them the optimal values based on speaker placement and the drivers themselves and characteristics of the amplification, all of which "shape" the sound and systems frequency response.
So what I'm saying is that yes, it is possible to run new components off the monsoon amp. But at the same time, no it will not be the optimal setup to use and doesn't guarantee that the new speakers will even sound better. The tweeters might end up being way to harsh and the midbass (door speaker) might underwhelm you. However it is guaranteed that if you were to sum (combine) the factory tweeter and midbass channels signal's then send that signal into even a cheap, small used 2 channel amp and use the passive crossover networks that are matched to the component system that the speakers would be an improvement over what you've got.
Or what I'd recommend doing is getting a 4 channel amp and doing the same as I said above with summing the 2 front channels, but then you'd have 2 extra channels on the new amp which you could use to drive your factory subs and help them hit a little better, or you could get the 6" kicker sub everyone seems to like on here.
If you think your going to stick with the factory amplification route. I wouldn't spend the money for the type r components. I'd say type s components will be more than adequate. I'd even go as far as saying just go find some open box or clearance deal at best buy.
For a cheap 4 channel amp I'd just go with an Alpine MRP-F300 ($200 retail, can be had for around $150 all day long) and its a decent amp.
That's a lot of info, let me know if anything doesn't make sense to you
However generally speaking yes, you can just use your new components as so called direct replacement drivers for the stockers, because the stock amp has built in crossovers and runs the factory speakers "active". But those crossovers were intended for the stoch drivers and with doing it that way the new speakers might not sound any better, especially the tweeters. I'm not entirely sure on how those preset crossover points are chosen, but I would assume GM would take the time to make them the optimal values based on speaker placement and the drivers themselves and characteristics of the amplification, all of which "shape" the sound and systems frequency response.
So what I'm saying is that yes, it is possible to run new components off the monsoon amp. But at the same time, no it will not be the optimal setup to use and doesn't guarantee that the new speakers will even sound better. The tweeters might end up being way to harsh and the midbass (door speaker) might underwhelm you. However it is guaranteed that if you were to sum (combine) the factory tweeter and midbass channels signal's then send that signal into even a cheap, small used 2 channel amp and use the passive crossover networks that are matched to the component system that the speakers would be an improvement over what you've got.
Or what I'd recommend doing is getting a 4 channel amp and doing the same as I said above with summing the 2 front channels, but then you'd have 2 extra channels on the new amp which you could use to drive your factory subs and help them hit a little better, or you could get the 6" kicker sub everyone seems to like on here.
If you think your going to stick with the factory amplification route. I wouldn't spend the money for the type r components. I'd say type s components will be more than adequate. I'd even go as far as saying just go find some open box or clearance deal at best buy.
For a cheap 4 channel amp I'd just go with an Alpine MRP-F300 ($200 retail, can be had for around $150 all day long) and its a decent amp.
That's a lot of info, let me know if anything doesn't make sense to you
Last edited by V8ImpSS; 03-07-2012 at 08:45 PM.
03-07-2012, 08:52 PM
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That guy from crutchfield was just reading whatever the "research file" for your car said. They have knowledgable staff who make the research files, then let a phone jocky read it back to the customer.
However generally speaking yes, you can just use your new components as so called direct replacement drivers for the stockers, because the stock amp has built in crossovers and runs the factory speakers "active". But those crossovers were intended for the stospam rivers and with doing it that way the new speakers might not sound any better, especially the tweeters. I'm not entirely sure on how those preset crossover points are chosen, but I would assume GM would take the time to make them the optimal values based on speaker placement and the drivers themselves and characteristics of the amplification, all of which "shape" the sound.
So what I'm saying is that yes, it is possible to run new components off the monsoon amp. But at the same time, no it will not be the optimal setup to use and doesn't guarantee that the new speakers will even sound better. The tweeters might end up being way to harsh and the midbass (door speaker) might underwhelm you. However it is guaranteed that if you were to sum (combine) the factory tweeter and midbass channels signal's then send that signal into even a cheap, small used 2 channel amp and use the passive crossover networks that are matched to the component system that the speakers would be an improvement over what you've got.
Or what I'd recommend doing is getting a 4 channel amp and doing the same as I said above with summing the 2 front channels, but then you'd have 2 extra channels on the new amp which you could use to drive your factory subs and help them hit a little better, or you could get the 6" kicker sub everyone seems to like on here
That's a lot of info, let me know if anything doesn't make sense to you
However generally speaking yes, you can just use your new components as so called direct replacement drivers for the stockers, because the stock amp has built in crossovers and runs the factory speakers "active". But those crossovers were intended for the stospam rivers and with doing it that way the new speakers might not sound any better, especially the tweeters. I'm not entirely sure on how those preset crossover points are chosen, but I would assume GM would take the time to make them the optimal values based on speaker placement and the drivers themselves and characteristics of the amplification, all of which "shape" the sound.
So what I'm saying is that yes, it is possible to run new components off the monsoon amp. But at the same time, no it will not be the optimal setup to use and doesn't guarantee that the new speakers will even sound better. The tweeters might end up being way to harsh and the midbass (door speaker) might underwhelm you. However it is guaranteed that if you were to sum (combine) the factory tweeter and midbass channels signal's then send that signal into even a cheap, small used 2 channel amp and use the passive crossover networks that are matched to the component system that the speakers would be an improvement over what you've got.
Or what I'd recommend doing is getting a 4 channel amp and doing the same as I said above with summing the 2 front channels, but then you'd have 2 extra channels on the new amp which you could use to drive your factory subs and help them hit a little better, or you could get the 6" kicker sub everyone seems to like on here
That's a lot of info, let me know if anything doesn't make sense to you
03-07-2012, 09:07 PM
#14
Well said and I agree with you totaly on the 2 options.My option is to keep it simple for now and just replace headunit and speakers. I decided to go with the R series instead of the S series beacause down the road the R series would handle more on an amp. Thanks for your input.
So if your going to change the head unit too then forget everything and just bypass and use the new deck's "amp"! Only problem is that you won't be able to amp the factory subs and bypass simultaneously...maybe someone who knows the fbody monsoon system and necessary harness better than me would say otherwise.
Can someone confirm if the harness can use line level? If it can you're good, if not your gonna need at least a 2 channel amp, but id go with a 4 channel.
You could conceivably use the deck's power on the subs instead of the rears, which you probs would barely notice the rears being gone with a nice front stage, but your going to need an inline passive x-over to filter out the high frequencies the sub can't handle...for example you'd need low pass around 100hz @6, 8, or 12db
If your just looking to upgrade SQ then I'd get the amp in leu of a new deck. But if your looking for added in dash features as well, than that's obviously not the route your gonna take.
03-07-2012, 09:41 PM
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Anytime brotha. Honestly I've done countless systems with both, and the difference is so minimal it's a joke. If you still wanted to stay in the type r price range for speakers, I'd go with some JL C2s best mid level speaker on the market IMO.
So if your going to change the head unit too then forget everything and just bypass and use the new deck's "amp"! Only problem is that you won't be able to amp the factory subs and bypass simultaneously...maybe someone who knows the fbody monsoon system and necessary harness better than me would say otherwise.
Can someone confirm if the harness can use line level? If it can you're good, if not your gonna need at least a 2 channel amp, but id go with a 4 channel.
You could conceivably use the deck's power on the subs instead of the rears, which you probs would barely notice the rears being gone with a nice front stage, but your going to need an inline passive x-over to filter out the high frequencies the sub can't handle...for example you'd need low pass around 100hz @6, 8, or 12db
If your just looking to upgrade SQ then I'd get the amp in leu of a new deck. But if your looking for added in dash features as well, than that's obviously not the route your gonna take.
So if your going to change the head unit too then forget everything and just bypass and use the new deck's "amp"! Only problem is that you won't be able to amp the factory subs and bypass simultaneously...maybe someone who knows the fbody monsoon system and necessary harness better than me would say otherwise.
Can someone confirm if the harness can use line level? If it can you're good, if not your gonna need at least a 2 channel amp, but id go with a 4 channel.
You could conceivably use the deck's power on the subs instead of the rears, which you probs would barely notice the rears being gone with a nice front stage, but your going to need an inline passive x-over to filter out the high frequencies the sub can't handle...for example you'd need low pass around 100hz @6, 8, or 12db
If your just looking to upgrade SQ then I'd get the amp in leu of a new deck. But if your looking for added in dash features as well, than that's obviously not the route your gonna take.
03-07-2012, 09:54 PM
#16
Unfortunately it's very difficult to do car audio in steps, if it were me I'd get rid of all the factory crap, which will sell on eBay. And use the amp in the new head unit on your fronts and factory subs like I said earlier. Rear full range speakers are there solely for fill, with a new really nice front stage you will not even notice that they are gone and you will love having the soundstage coming at you from the windshield and no where else.
That only requires wires to be ran from behind the dash to the speakers. And you can use home depot $15 for 100 feet speaker wire without issue. And it will sound a hell of a lot better and it doesn't get any simpler. It will also save you from needing to buy the expensive harness that lets you replace the head unit and maintain factory amplification.
When looking at head units try to find one that features time alignment, it's a great feature to have when using deck power, really helps SQ.
That only requires wires to be ran from behind the dash to the speakers. And you can use home depot $15 for 100 feet speaker wire without issue. And it will sound a hell of a lot better and it doesn't get any simpler. It will also save you from needing to buy the expensive harness that lets you replace the head unit and maintain factory amplification.
When looking at head units try to find one that features time alignment, it's a great feature to have when using deck power, really helps SQ.
03-08-2012, 08:16 AM
#17
The Monsoon amp is actually quite good for what it is. Obviously, it's not particularly powerful and it has a rather unique combination of signal filtering, but it produces clean amplification which is better than what's available from a head unit alone. The only time it makes sense to remove (or bypass...
) the Monsoon amp and run off the head unit is if the speakers are being replaced with something that doesn't match the filtering (e.g. putting coaxials in the sail panels).
03-08-2012, 09:33 AM
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It is possible to keep your sails working as a functional midbass through a simple combination of digital HPF/LPF settings on your HU and filters on your amps.
Get a HU with sub, front, and rear pre-outs. Make sure has LPF (sub) and HPF (F/R) settings. Set the LPF for 100 and the HPF for about 80, a little overlap is good.
Get a 4 channel amp with an RCA pass-through output. HPF dial optional. Connect the RCA out to the 2 channel amp input.
Get a 2 channel amp for the sails with an LPF dial that goes up to 300 Hz or more.
Get a monoblock with an LPF for the bass sub.
What you end up with a very rich "3-way" soundstage:
25-100 Hz sub < 80-300 Hz mid-bass < 200-hi doors/hatch
Its been debated before at length. Some people like Dragonrage will argue that midbass is waste and good components in the doors can cope with 100 Hz. I think a low excursion driver on a typical 6.5" component set is inadequate for frequencies that low and a pair high excursion dedicated bass cones really helps out. People who keep the midbass will tell you they miss it when it's gone from the sails, all else being equal. A typical 10 or 12 sub cone will struggle beyond 150 Hz or so. Lower frequencies take a lot more power to reproduce at proportional volumes than higher frequencies.
The design of the monsoon audio system was well thought out, minus a real sub bass cone. The choice of oem hardware in the execution was a bit lacking..
Not trying to muddy the waters, but there are lots of options out there. It's also a lot to consider if you take this approach, you need 7 channels of amplification. But, if you take this route, I can all but promise you'll love it if you use quality gear.
Get a HU with sub, front, and rear pre-outs. Make sure has LPF (sub) and HPF (F/R) settings. Set the LPF for 100 and the HPF for about 80, a little overlap is good.
Get a 4 channel amp with an RCA pass-through output. HPF dial optional. Connect the RCA out to the 2 channel amp input.
Get a 2 channel amp for the sails with an LPF dial that goes up to 300 Hz or more.
Get a monoblock with an LPF for the bass sub.
What you end up with a very rich "3-way" soundstage:
25-100 Hz sub < 80-300 Hz mid-bass < 200-hi doors/hatch
Its been debated before at length. Some people like Dragonrage will argue that midbass is waste and good components in the doors can cope with 100 Hz. I think a low excursion driver on a typical 6.5" component set is inadequate for frequencies that low and a pair high excursion dedicated bass cones really helps out. People who keep the midbass will tell you they miss it when it's gone from the sails, all else being equal. A typical 10 or 12 sub cone will struggle beyond 150 Hz or so. Lower frequencies take a lot more power to reproduce at proportional volumes than higher frequencies.
The design of the monsoon audio system was well thought out, minus a real sub bass cone. The choice of oem hardware in the execution was a bit lacking..
Not trying to muddy the waters, but there are lots of options out there. It's also a lot to consider if you take this approach, you need 7 channels of amplification. But, if you take this route, I can all but promise you'll love it if you use quality gear.
03-08-2012, 10:34 AM
#20
So your saying he should run his front stage active but with new amplification and a deck? How's that going to work? I have my 6.5" midbass crossed at HPF at 60@12db and the oldies preset on my BitOne takes that down to 50hz...any decent midbass driver can get that low, you just usually have to dynamat the outer door skin and cover all the holes to get the best results.
@whitebird, you would know better than I would, but since he wants to upgrade in stages, I think adding a real amp for his fronts and "subs" would make a vast difference, because you can limit distortion with the gain...also because again, I wouldn't just use new components as plug n play replacements for stock without using the passive x-overs.
Since he's getting a new head unit any way he could use the monsoon amp on his rears, or just use deck power and sell the monsoon amp, i just sold a Bose amp for an escalade for $150, then with having a real amp and a good deck he would have a great sounding system...spending the extra $150 on the cheap Alpine amp would let him avoid the $100+ harness that allows use of the monsoon amp and add simplicity to the install
I just don't see the point in using factory crap and spending the money to make it work with new equipment, if your replacing everything anyway
@whitebird, you would know better than I would, but since he wants to upgrade in stages, I think adding a real amp for his fronts and "subs" would make a vast difference, because you can limit distortion with the gain...also because again, I wouldn't just use new components as plug n play replacements for stock without using the passive x-overs.
Since he's getting a new head unit any way he could use the monsoon amp on his rears, or just use deck power and sell the monsoon amp, i just sold a Bose amp for an escalade for $150, then with having a real amp and a good deck he would have a great sounding system...spending the extra $150 on the cheap Alpine amp would let him avoid the $100+ harness that allows use of the monsoon amp and add simplicity to the install
I just don't see the point in using factory crap and spending the money to make it work with new equipment, if your replacing everything anyway