2000 Camaro Z28 vs. 2010 Camaro SS
01-02-2010, 01:20 PM
#41
Administrator
I don't either, however someone on a certain Third Gen site had a really good explanation of what a "Factory Freak" really is. It could really not apply to new engines due to new tolerance levels, but LS1's do still seem to vary by 5-10HP.
When every part is cast, its cast to a tolerance, this tolerance could range from 0.00%, -0.001% or +0.001%, whatever. We will use rockers for an example, as this is what was used as the example when I read it.
Machine casts 3 different sets of rockers for 3 stock LS1s on 3 different days. One is casted as a 1.695 rocker. One is casted at a 1.700 rocker, one is casted at a 1.705 rocker.
Car A makes less horsepower than Car B and C, however, if he were to upgrade to 1.8 rockers, he would gain more power than normal, as he would be making up for the original imperfection in the rocker.
Car B makes normal horsepower, makes normal gains when switching rockers.
Car C makes more horsepower, but makes less horsepower when upgrading rocker ratios.
This explains all the situations we get when different cars get different dyno gains but make near the same HP.
20camaro00: The car you raced was a TA and not a Formula correct? Formulas are apparently one of the lightest stock F-Bodys with the correct options.
When every part is cast, its cast to a tolerance, this tolerance could range from 0.00%, -0.001% or +0.001%, whatever. We will use rockers for an example, as this is what was used as the example when I read it.
Machine casts 3 different sets of rockers for 3 stock LS1s on 3 different days. One is casted as a 1.695 rocker. One is casted at a 1.700 rocker, one is casted at a 1.705 rocker.
Car A makes less horsepower than Car B and C, however, if he were to upgrade to 1.8 rockers, he would gain more power than normal, as he would be making up for the original imperfection in the rocker.
Car B makes normal horsepower, makes normal gains when switching rockers.
Car C makes more horsepower, but makes less horsepower when upgrading rocker ratios.
This explains all the situations we get when different cars get different dyno gains but make near the same HP.
20camaro00: The car you raced was a TA and not a Formula correct? Formulas are apparently one of the lightest stock F-Bodys with the correct options.
01-02-2010, 02:46 PM
#43
TECH Resident
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Navarre, FL
Posts: 982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dyno numbers are pointless. For example, one of my friends car dynod 405rwhp at speed inc with a full boltons ls6 crate engine. We cammed it, took it to texas speed and it dynod 415rwhp. The difference between the car before and after, was HUGE. Definitely more than 10rwhp difference. Some dynos are optimistic, some are underrated.
Dynos are for TUNING ONLY. Not for measuring your (undersized) pecker.
Dynos are for TUNING ONLY. Not for measuring your (undersized) pecker.
01-02-2010, 04:02 PM
#44
Staging Lane
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agreed. SRT Engineers state that a 2% hp variance is seen in production 6.1s. That means plus or minus 8.5hp based on the 425hp rating.
01-02-2010, 04:15 PM
#45
On The Tree
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: 918
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ok.. but that would make my point still valid, except that its a lesser tolerance.. which mine was then taken out of context when it was only used as an example.. Well, now it makes sense at least.
01-02-2010, 04:31 PM
#46
with lawsuits being what they are today, combined with better building processes it would be shocking to see 5% difference let alone a freak.
01-02-2010, 05:43 PM
#47
Staging Lane
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wonder if that 2% I wrote about gets smaller as break-in miles occur? There IS variance, it's greater if you only look at dyno results, but no factory freaks.
01-02-2010, 07:03 PM
#48
Staging Lane
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Iowa
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are plenty of them. And it doesn't have to be like 50hp to be considered a freak, but probably 25hp above normal I'd say. Take your 5% figure you threw out, that can lead to 15 or more horsepower assuming you go with the Factory rating of 320hp. Last time I checked, 15 horsepower is enough to put the race in your favor.
01-02-2010, 08:08 PM
#49
Good kill OP but I think too that you might have run accross a RS v6 model. You cant put a hurt like that on a car capable of trapping a good 110 with a stock fbody. Even if its an auto and trap only 104-106, you couldnt call an easy win like it was.
RS V6 are almost identical to V8 RS, I think only the small ram air in top front bumper is different..
about factory freaks;
You have to take in account that the LS6 intake'd LS1 are pushing sometimes a good 15-25hp more, so there you have your factory freak. Or you have this tiny Z28 with small wheel and zero option so the car would perform better...Or;
Unit, dont you think all car doesnt react the same from their stock tuned PCM? Some run richer and other leaner, I think this could be a part of the factory freak thing. When plp take their car to tune em on a dyno, some gets more from tuning than other...which result in a different stock hp numbers.
link to rwhp fbody vs vette;
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dyno-benc...whp-stock.html
RS V6 are almost identical to V8 RS, I think only the small ram air in top front bumper is different..
about factory freaks;
You have to take in account that the LS6 intake'd LS1 are pushing sometimes a good 15-25hp more, so there you have your factory freak. Or you have this tiny Z28 with small wheel and zero option so the car would perform better...Or;
Unit, dont you think all car doesnt react the same from their stock tuned PCM? Some run richer and other leaner, I think this could be a part of the factory freak thing. When plp take their car to tune em on a dyno, some gets more from tuning than other...which result in a different stock hp numbers.
link to rwhp fbody vs vette;
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dyno-benc...whp-stock.html
Last edited by Johnnystock; 01-02-2010 at 08:18 PM.
01-02-2010, 10:21 PM
#50
Teching In
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Frisco, Texas
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
he raced the V8...every time somebody claims they out ran a new camaro half the people that post say it was the v6...its almost like half of you LS guys are happy that your LS1 is just as quick as the new SS and the other half is praying that its not.....a stock LS1 will MURDER a V6 camaro they are slow a coworker of mine has one and il put a bus lengh on him by 100 from a dig...lets all just take a step back see how everything unfolds the new camaro's havent been out on the street very long
01-03-2010, 02:39 AM
#51
Teching In
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yes parasoth is was a T/A not a formula. ans thank u sleeperstang16, it was the SS V8 because i have raced a new V6 camaro and destroyed it. you can tell the difference by looking at the V8 to the V6's. first the exhuast is different, and the fact the front on the car has the SS emblem. and the face that the kids spoiled and gets what he wants i mean ****, his parents bought him an 07 monte carlo SS for his 13th b-day, and a 2009 1600 harley and a 2010 Camaro SS for his 16 b-day.
01-03-2010, 06:56 AM
#52
yes parasoth is was a T/A not a formula. ans thank u sleeperstang16, it was the SS V8 because i have raced a new V6 camaro and destroyed it. you can tell the difference by looking at the V8 to the V6's. first the exhuast is different, and the fact the front on the car has the SS emblem. and the face that the kids spoiled and gets what he wants i mean ****, his parents bought him an 07 monte carlo SS for his 13th b-day, and a 2009 1600 harley and a 2010 Camaro SS for his 16 b-day.
anyway, I just dont understand all those stories about newer SS getting destroyed...I wish I had one to see whats wrong with em.
01-03-2010, 09:12 AM
#53
Teching In
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Frisco, Texas
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
lets say that both the 2002 ss and the 2010 SS are losing 15% hp. The 2002 SS weighs in at 3,614 lbs with 345 hp, the 2010 camaro SS weighs in at 3,849 with 426hp. With the 15% loss of hp that puts the 2002 SS at 293 rwhp that leaves the the LS1 making .08 rwhp per pound. Now the 2010 with the 15% loss is making 362rwhp and .09 hp per pound so your really looking at a pretty even race "drivers race"...and ive also heard that that the new camaro's have a greater loss than 15%.....just my funny way of looking at things..oh and all number are rounded
01-03-2010, 11:51 AM
#56
TECH Regular
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 476
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
lets say that both the 2002 ss and the 2010 SS are losing 15% hp. The 2002 SS weighs in at 3,614 lbs with 345 hp, the 2010 camaro SS weighs in at 3,849 with 426hp. With the 15% loss of hp that puts the 2002 SS at 293 rwhp that leaves the the LS1 making .08 rwhp per pound. Now the 2010 with the 15% loss is making 362rwhp and .09 hp per pound so your really looking at a pretty even race "drivers race"...and ive also heard that that the new camaro's have a greater loss than 15%.....just my funny way of looking at things..oh and all number are rounded
Also, nearly all LS1s are the same. The LS1 in an '02 SS makes the same 350hp as the C5.
01-03-2010, 12:48 PM
#57
10 Second Club
lets say that both the 2002 ss and the 2010 SS are losing 15% hp. The 2002 SS weighs in at 3,614 lbs with 345 hp, the 2010 camaro SS weighs in at 3,849 with 426hp. With the 15% loss of hp that puts the 2002 SS at 293 rwhp that leaves the the LS1 making .08 rwhp per pound. Now the 2010 with the 15% loss is making 362rwhp and .09 hp per pound so your really looking at a pretty even race "drivers race"...and ive also heard that that the new camaro's have a greater loss than 15%.....just my funny way of looking at things..oh and all number are rounded
01-03-2010, 12:49 PM
#58
Staging Lane
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[QUOTE=Johnnystock;12696575]You have to take in account that the LS6 intake'd LS1 are pushing sometimes a good 15-25hp more, so there you have your factory freak. Or you have this tiny Z28 with small wheel and zero option so the car would perform better...
Would 15hp over stock make it a factory freak?
That is a little heavy for '02 from what I've read. What are the gearing differences?
There is probably a difference between the automatic and the manual but not much. Heat soaked on the dyno may give that impression too.
Would 15hp over stock make it a factory freak?
and ive also heard that that the new camaro's have a greater loss than 15%.....just my funny way of looking at things..oh and all number are rounded
01-03-2010, 02:18 PM
#59
Teching In
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Frisco, Texas
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I got all of my specs off of edmunds for both the 02 and the 10....and yeah they are dynoing at 370 or so but thats SAE corrected again this is what i have read....and all of those numbers are off the AVG % loss and the auto's are loosing any where from 17 to 19% through the drivetrain....also i didnt post that to explain what is going on with the new SS this is just something that i do to get somewhat of an idea on how cars match up in theory...well my own theory anyway
