Supra Run In!
#101
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Originally Posted by Juiced
Actually if you knew anything about engineering and racing you would know why most Japanese "super car" factory motors are so over engineered.
For Japanese Cars to race in the JGTC (Japanese Grand Touring Car Championship) the motor has to be Hemoligated and no Internal parts may be modified, that means the motor is setup to run at 500+rwhp for the length of the endurance race. same reason Honda looses money on each $100K NSX they sell. Do you really think a NSX motor need Ti rods (since '92) titanuim valves and other exotic components for street use? NO.... they need it to win races on the track.
It's not unheard of for company's to lose money on a car to get it into a specific racing series.....
BTW the 2jzgte motor was designed by Germans![Bomb](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_bomb.gif)
For Japanese Cars to race in the JGTC (Japanese Grand Touring Car Championship) the motor has to be Hemoligated and no Internal parts may be modified, that means the motor is setup to run at 500+rwhp for the length of the endurance race. same reason Honda looses money on each $100K NSX they sell. Do you really think a NSX motor need Ti rods (since '92) titanuim valves and other exotic components for street use? NO.... they need it to win races on the track.
It's not unheard of for company's to lose money on a car to get it into a specific racing series.....
BTW the 2jzgte motor was designed by Germans
![Bomb](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_bomb.gif)
Second, if you are going to explain something and sound so superior about it, at least get the spelling right. It's homologated, NOT what you said. And I knew all about this stuff from rallying BEFORE you were even born!!!!
Also, that's great about your precious NSX, but GM did the same thing with the C6 Z06, and not necessarily for any specific racing series, for $65K AND better performance.
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#102
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Originally Posted by FEARSM
Ahh..there is the CRUX of my argument. You say any engine can be BUILT that way. Of course that is true. The Supra is that way from the showroom floor....
I'm not going to get into Japans "window of opportunity", but believe me when I tell you that GM designed cars throughout the 90's that should have been produced, yet strangely weren't (and to be honest, weren't really needed). Ryan Falconer's early 90's V12 Corvette concept, which GM seriously contemplated, comes to mind....
Anyways, just like in every hobby, "something" provokes the demand. Steve McQueen's Mustang, Burt Reynolds' Trans Am, and Paul Walker's Supra-TT.... all play their part.
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#103
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Originally Posted by dailydriver
First of all, believe me, I've forgotten more about racing and rallying than you'll ever know, so don't give me your "Engineering 101" BS!
Second, if you are going to explain something and sound so superior about it, at least get the spelling right. It's homologated, NOT what you said. And I knew all about this stuff from rallying BEFORE you were even born!!!!
Also, that's great about your precious NSX, but GM did the same thing with the C6 Z06, and not necessarily for any specific racing series, for $65K AND better performance.
Do they lose on every one? Probably, but I'm just glad they built it to shut up all of the importfanboyzz!!
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Second, if you are going to explain something and sound so superior about it, at least get the spelling right. It's homologated, NOT what you said. And I knew all about this stuff from rallying BEFORE you were even born!!!!
Also, that's great about your precious NSX, but GM did the same thing with the C6 Z06, and not necessarily for any specific racing series, for $65K AND better performance.
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I'm Actually WAY beyond Engineering 101.....
Did you know that the c6 Z06 share nothing in common with the C6r? the Block used in the C6r is worth 20k alone....
Besides i highly doubt you've forgotten more than i know
![Bulls#!t](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_bs.gif)
i don't know why you have to keep using the importfanboyzz comment? Because someone appreciates a work or art (engineering wise) does that make them a fanboy?
I look a the genIII SBC in the same way as the 2JZ, and the new rotary valve motors being brought to the publics attention.
I guess your old age you might have forgotten how to appreciaterace bred motors in street car, and how lucky we are that the govt still allows us to have them....
Last edited by Juiced; 04-17-2007 at 03:26 PM.
#104
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Originally Posted by Juiced
I'm sorry about the spelling mistake.... my bad
I'm Actually WAY beyond Engineering 101.....
Did you know that the c6 Z06 share nothing in common with the C6r? the Block used in the C6r is worth 20k alone....
Besides i highly doubt you've forgotten more than i know![Bulls#!t](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_bs.gif)
![Embarassed](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_emb.gif)
I'm Actually WAY beyond Engineering 101.....
Did you know that the c6 Z06 share nothing in common with the C6r? the Block used in the C6r is worth 20k alone....
Besides i highly doubt you've forgotten more than i know
![Bulls#!t](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_bs.gif)
Sorry about claiming more knowledge than you, you're probably right about doubting that. It's just you were starting to sound like a fanboy who just got into school, again, sorry.
Yes, I DO know very little is shared between the road going Z06 & ALMS C6R, but the street one still has titanium rods/valvetrain parts and sodium filled exhaust valves, as well as carbon fiber/kevlar, and magnesium unibody/suspension pieces. Nice "low tech" for a street car, huh?
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I also feel that IF they let the C6R (or a prepped for the rules C6 Z06, if the C6R was beyond their rules) into your JGTCC, it would kick azz over there as well.
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#105
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Originally Posted by dailydriver
Sorry about claiming more knowledge than you, you're probably right about doubting that. It's just you were starting to sound like a fanboy who just got into school, again, sorry.
Yes, I DO know very little is shared between the road going Z06 & ALMS C6R, but the street one still has some titanium rods/valvetrain parts and sodium filled exhaust valves.
I also feel that IF they let the C6R (or a prepped for the rules C6 Z06, if the C6R was beyond their rules) into your JGTCC, it would kick azz over there as well.
![The Patriot !!](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_patriot.gif)
Yes, I DO know very little is shared between the road going Z06 & ALMS C6R, but the street one still has some titanium rods/valvetrain parts and sodium filled exhaust valves.
I also feel that IF they let the C6R (or a prepped for the rules C6 Z06, if the C6R was beyond their rules) into your JGTCC, it would kick azz over there as well.
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I'm not doubting that that the Corvettes would do well, if there was more of a market for them in japan i could see GM putting in an effort, Prat & Miller run an Amazing team. I know Dodge was running in the JGTC a few years ago don't know if they still are ( i don't really follow it, i'm more into Toyota Atlantic, Champ Car, and formula 1, and ALMS)
So any ways when i post i'm posting as an engineer and not a fanboy.....
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Originally Posted by dailydriver
Yes, it definitely was "overbuilt", which ties in with my previous statements that Toyota lost money on every one (even when they were charging $50K for them). Yes, I also know (sadly enough) that they could well afford this, BUT they still do not like to lose cash, as a business model, EVEN on a "flagship".
But since you brought up "off the showroom floor", again I will ask, what Nippon nameplate car will run with even a stock C6, let alone a stock Z06 C6, completely, totally BONE freakin stock, NO mods, boost controllers, etc. right off of the "showroom floor"?? PRODUCTION CARS only, no one off Nippon "specials".
But since you brought up "off the showroom floor", again I will ask, what Nippon nameplate car will run with even a stock C6, let alone a stock Z06 C6, completely, totally BONE freakin stock, NO mods, boost controllers, etc. right off of the "showroom floor"?? PRODUCTION CARS only, no one off Nippon "specials".
seriously, what were the production numbers of the 06' c6? i swear it was only a little over 3,000 z06's produced.
Most japanese companies are too busy selling their regular mass produced models.
while chevy fails to sell their basic cars, toyota sells hundreds of thousands of camry's. So they might not have a super car, but they actually sell their cars and profit.
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Originally Posted by Finite1
seriously, what were the production numbers of the 06' c6? i swear it was only a little over 3,000 z06's produced.
Most japanese companies are too busy selling their regular mass produced models.
while chevy fails to sell their basic cars, toyota sells hundreds of thousands of camry's. So they might not have a super car, but they actually sell their cars and profit.
Most japanese companies are too busy selling their regular mass produced models.
while chevy fails to sell their basic cars, toyota sells hundreds of thousands of camry's. So they might not have a super car, but they actually sell their cars and profit.
The Big 3:Market share in 1/2ton and larger trucks
Euros: have the Luxury market Cornered
Japanese: Profitable "blue collar market"
For the same money Toyota can offer a better car because of lower production cost (watch that to change in 10 years)
Just like a M6 BMW will be a lot nicer than a XLR-V (same pricepoint but what would you rather drive)
This all falls comes down to management/legacy cost that drive up the cost of production for similar market share cars but that is another story all together.
Last edited by Juiced; 04-17-2007 at 03:56 PM.
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True, but going by the same argument... think of this as a business. they aren't building cars cause of street racers realistically. They are trying to be a successful business.
how much does chevy lose on each z06 they sell? honestly?
how much does chevy lose on each z06 they sell? honestly?
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In all honesty they more than likely still have a huge profit, it share everything with the C6 other than a few body panels and the motor...
Everything is mass produced just like the c6 only change is the ls7 is hand built.
Retail for c6 $50,000 i'm guessing the profit is 15-20k
retail for Z06 $70,000.... profit somewhere in the 10-15k
Everything is mass produced just like the c6 only change is the ls7 is hand built.
Retail for c6 $50,000 i'm guessing the profit is 15-20k
retail for Z06 $70,000.... profit somewhere in the 10-15k
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Originally Posted by Juiced
The motor was actually outsourced to German Company, I have it in one of Engine theory books, when i get home i'll scan it.
The 2JZ-GTE was outsourced to German firm Johann A. Krause Machinefabrik GmbH to refine and make suitable for use in the Japanese Grand Touring Car Championship "JGTC" witch required the motor to be homologated in a production car. The Engine was to power the fourth generation of the Supra sports car. It was based on the 2JZ-GE, but differed in its use of sequential twin turbochargers and the use of an intercooler.The 2JZ-GTE was one of the few Japanese 3-liter sports car engines on both the Japanese domestic and export markets during the '90s, sharing the title with Nissan's VG30DETT V6 and Mitsubishi's 6G72 V6.
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I've been surpised by supra's with a little bit of work.....I raced one when I was in VA Beach, he held pretty even with me till we hit traffic and I let off and he kept bobbin and weaving in and out of traffic at 100+ mph.......I freakin hate drivers like that, their the reason people die while street racing!
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Originally Posted by Juiced
It's all about track prep and DA.... Never been to a track on the west coast with less than 2400DA, that has a huge effect on cars.....
And yes Terminators with the same mods are running faster times than the GT500's around here.
And yes Terminators with the same mods are running faster times than the GT500's around here.
PLEASE retort with something that resembles educated sense this time. A GT500 is faster stock vs. stock on any given day given the same conditions than a stock LS1 Fbod or stock Terminator. I don't care what "feel" by the seat of your pants. Same day, same place, same conditions the GT500 will be faster.
And one more time; FI (forced induction) cars are LESS affected by DA than NA (normally aspirated) engines.
Consider yourself edumacated.
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Originally Posted by 04Terminator
Track Prep and Density Altitude is better in CA than anywhere else? Once again you argue with ignorance. Most of the NHRA records were set on the East coast. Reading PA, ProStock set all new records in Dinwiddie last October...I was there. The only exception being Pomona CA that has 2 E.T. records.
PLEASE retort with something that resembles educated sense this time. A GT500 is faster stock vs. stock on any given day given the same conditions than a stock LS1 Fbod or stock Terminator. I don't care what "feel" by the seat of your pants. Same day, same place, same conditions the GT500 will be faster.
And one more time; FI (forced induction) cars are LESS affected by DA than NA (normally aspirated) engines.
Consider yourself edumacated.![The Jester](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_jest.gif)
PLEASE retort with something that resembles educated sense this time. A GT500 is faster stock vs. stock on any given day given the same conditions than a stock LS1 Fbod or stock Terminator. I don't care what "feel" by the seat of your pants. Same day, same place, same conditions the GT500 will be faster.
And one more time; FI (forced induction) cars are LESS affected by DA than NA (normally aspirated) engines.
Consider yourself edumacated.
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I'VE NEVER BEEN TO A TRACK OUT HERE WITH LESS THAN 2400 DA.
CALIFORNIA= 2400+
ATCO/E-TOWN= -1000 or however insanely low it gets.
#117
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Originally Posted by Juiced
re-read what i wrote please........
I'VE NEVER BEEN TO A TRACK OUT HERE WITH LESS THAN 2400 DA.
CALIFORNIA= 2400+
ATCO/E-TOWN= -1000 or however insanely low it gets.
![Rolleyes](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/rolleyes.gif)
I'VE NEVER BEEN TO A TRACK OUT HERE WITH LESS THAN 2400 DA.
CALIFORNIA= 2400+
ATCO/E-TOWN= -1000 or however insanely low it gets.
I think YOU should re-read All your posts and take things you've said in context. Saying that a stock Terminator or LS1 Fbod is faster than a GT500 in CA due to track prep and DA?
Dude you seem to think you know it all and have this holier-than-thou attitude, but that makes no sense at all. Have you ever even been to the East Coast? Attended a drag race? Researched DA and how engines react to various air denseties, humidity and temperature?
It's ok to admit you have no idea.
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Originally Posted by Juiced
Everything is mass produced just like the c6 only change is the ls7 is hand built.
Sounds an awful lot like a "race" engine to me. At least as much as your NSX/2JZGTE is from the factory. You can put it down all you want, but it STILL kicks the azz of ANY Nippon factory effort, stock for stock, WITH a 5 year 100K mile warranty, I might add. Yes, I know MKIV worshippers HATE to talk stock to stock, but what if someone wants to leave it that way and turn 10 second 1/4 miles under that warranty. Could you have done that with your "invincable" Supras??!!
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#119
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Originally Posted by Juiced
The Z06 was never ment to be a mass produced car....
The Big 3:Market share in 1/2ton and larger trucks
Euros: have the Luxury market Cornered
Japanese: Profitable "blue collar market"
For the same money Toyota can offer a better car because of lower production cost (watch that to change in 10 years)
Just like a M6 BMW will be a lot nicer than a XLR-V (same pricepoint but what would you rather drive)
This all falls comes down to management/legacy cost that drive up the cost of production for similar market share cars but that is another story all together.
The Big 3:Market share in 1/2ton and larger trucks
Euros: have the Luxury market Cornered
Japanese: Profitable "blue collar market"
For the same money Toyota can offer a better car because of lower production cost (watch that to change in 10 years)
Just like a M6 BMW will be a lot nicer than a XLR-V (same pricepoint but what would you rather drive)
This all falls comes down to management/legacy cost that drive up the cost of production for similar market share cars but that is another story all together.
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Originally Posted by Juiced
I guess your old age you might have forgotten how to appreciaterace bred motors in street car, and how lucky we are that the govt still allows us to have them....
I do remember "race bred" motors in street cars, and have witnessed them first hand when they were new, LONG before you (and your import
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Yup, L-88s, LS6/7s, ZL-1s, original LT-1s, Z28 302s, etc., etc.
BTW; YES, I DO acknowledge the engineering prowess, speed/power/performance potential, etc., etc. of the various Nippon marques, but I do not have to "respect" or even "like" them (even to be considered an "enthusiast"). I just prefer to own/spend my hard earned cash right HERE where I live on domestic nameplated rides/COMPANIES !!
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Now please, all of you come back and put me down for this. As we speak I'm getting into my Impact SFI 5 suit. FLAME THE F*** ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!