Supra Run In!
#141
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Originally Posted by Street Lethal
Not comparing, just using that production vehicle as an example of Corvette technology. Sledgehammer was an '88 Corvette, that to this day is the fastest production vehicle ever to be released in the United States. The person who I originally replied to had stated, "its doubtful the vette would be the machine it is today", and that was my way of saying that the Corvette has always been the machine that it is today. It didn't take the advent of those foreign makes to make it happen....
Ryan Falconer's experimental V12 Corvette, Project ZR2 "Big Doggie" BB-454, ZR1 Snake Skinner, experimental ZR1 Black Widow, there have been many late 80's, early 90's Corvette concepts that would have easily cleaned any Supra/RX7/300ZX's clock from the factory, as well as beyond, had they literally been produced, of course. That being said, I'll reiterate, been there, done that. You can argue that these cars weren't released to the public, and I'll argue right back that it doesn't really matter. The technology has always been there....
Ryan Falconer's experimental V12 Corvette, Project ZR2 "Big Doggie" BB-454, ZR1 Snake Skinner, experimental ZR1 Black Widow, there have been many late 80's, early 90's Corvette concepts that would have easily cleaned any Supra/RX7/300ZX's clock from the factory, as well as beyond, had they literally been produced, of course. That being said, I'll reiterate, been there, done that. You can argue that these cars weren't released to the public, and I'll argue right back that it doesn't really matter. The technology has always been there....
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Originally Posted by FEARSM
They reached an agreement to take a brand new Vette from GM and TURN it into a sledgehammer. They didnt open up a plant and start making Sledgehammers from scratch.
![Icon Lol](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies2/icon_lol.gif)
Not to mention how unprofittable it would have been for them. They produced/designed the car from C4-L98 status, they did not design it from scratch....
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#143
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Originally Posted by Street Lethal
Fear, like I said, you can argue that these cars never made it to production, but it doesn't really matter though. Any true automotive enthusiast is well aware of such Corvette technology, and wouldn't lower themselves down to, "oh, but it was never produced, so it doesn't count". Yeah, but, the standard ZR1 was produced. A limited run of Snake Skinner's (light weight ZR1's) were produced. Sledgehammer was produced. Ryan Falconer's V12 engine was/is produced. Your point? Oh yeah, the point that it wasn't feasible lol. Just love how you consistently change one's argumenet to somehow fit your strange arguments. Was arguing that GM technology has always been there, way before the 2JZ. Why isn't that feasible....? ![Icon Rolleyes](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies2/icon_rolleyes.gif)
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You seem to think that I am not an enthusiast. I happen to think the C6 Z06 corvette is the best all around car out today bar none.
#144
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Originally Posted by Street Lethal
Never said they did. If you carefully inspect my initial post, I stated, GM and it's affiliates. WHY would Calloway "construct" a vehicle with it's rights exclusively being owned by General Motors?
Not to mention how unprofittable it would have been for them. They produced/designed the car from C4-L98 status, they did not design it from scratch....![Icon Rolleyes](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies2/icon_rolleyes.gif)
![Icon Lol](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies2/icon_lol.gif)
Not to mention how unprofittable it would have been for them. They produced/designed the car from C4-L98 status, they did not design it from scratch....
![Icon Rolleyes](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies2/icon_rolleyes.gif)
#145
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Fear, calm down. I don't consider you someone who is not in the know, quite on the contrary. I know your argument, everyone here does for crying out loud lol. I responded to someone's statement regarding the Corvette, claiming that it's technology has always been there (something you just confirmed below), and that it didn't take the advent of the Imports to provoke it. So what's the problem? ![Winky](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_wink.gif)
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Originally Posted by FEARSM
Thats not even my argument. I never said anything about the technology not being there for GM. I dont dispute that. I just dont see how you are proving your point with cars that werent even produced or Tuner cars. You are comparing apples to oranges. No car companie sinks the same amount of cash into a few concept cars as to mass production cars. You can afford to lavishly spend on cars you wont be making in huge quantities. You seem to think that I am not an enthusiast. I happen to think the C6 Z06 corvette is the best all around car out today bar none....
#146
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Originally Posted by FEARSM
EXACTLY. Why are you comparing a tuner car to stock production car..apples to oranges. Thats like comparing my highly modded car to a stock corvette.
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Originally Posted by Irunelevens
I think he's saying that the Corvette wouldn't be as good as it is ON THE WHOLE, not just straightline speed. Competition forces things to get better, and the C4 definitely had some good competition.
No doubt the production C4 had some serious competition. I remember when I had mine back in the mid 90's, and a Mitsu 3000-GT gave me a very good run on the street. Definitely was an eye opener, lemme tell ya....
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#148
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The ZR1 was quite a bit faster than an LT1 or LT4 Corvette, but the car as a WHOLE was not very different at all. Still the same wet-noodle chassis, basically the same handling (except the 3" wider rear track), same numb-ish steering... GM KNEW that the C4 was dated. It was in bad need of a MAJOR revamp to stay competitive with the world's sports car. The C5 was the first Corvette that was a truly great all-around performer.
#149
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Originally Posted by Street Lethal
Ryan Falconer's experimental V12 Corvette, Project ZR2 "Big Doggie" BB-454, ZR1 Snake Skinner, experimental ZR1 Black Widow, there have been many late 80's, early 90's Corvette concepts that would have easily cleaned any Supra/RX7/300ZX's clock from the factory, as well as beyond, had they literally been produced, of course. That being said, I'll reiterate, been there, done that. You can argue that these cars weren't released to the public, and I'll argue right back that it doesn't really matter. The technology has always been there....
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Originally Posted by FEARSM
I understand your point, but it's this statement that I was referring to. Stating that the concepts cars would have "cleaned their clocks" is a direct performance comparison. Those cars did show incredible technology at the time, but comparing them to a car that was actually mass produced is a bit unfair. Thats all I am saying...
There must always be a happy medium.
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Originally Posted by Irunelevens
The ZR1 was quite a bit faster than an LT1 or LT4 Corvette, but the car as a WHOLE was not very different at all. Still the same wet-noodle chassis. The C5 was the first Corvette that was a truly great all-around performer.
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#152
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Originally Posted by FEARSM
Stock block record is currently 1001 rwhp. Stock long block with stock internals. It was done on race gas. Worship has nothing to do with it, just the facts.
For the record, it was 1017whp done by Tim Iacoli.
Anyway, people need to respect the Supra for what it was in its time period and what they have accomplished today. Corvettes will always be a American icon car so theres nothing else that needs to be said about them. They have been always known as a performance car with a heritage behind the name.
#153
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Originally Posted by Street Lethal
I honestly never felt that much of a difference. I remember test driving the new C5 when it came out, and although I remember being impressed with it's power-band, it's handling didn't really stand out though. I also wouldn't consider the ZR1's handling wet noodle like.... ![Winky](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_wink.gif)
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#154
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Originally Posted by Irunelevens
Every C4 had a wet-noodle for a chassis. You cannot seriously argue that... ![The Judge](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_judge.gif)
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#155
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The ZR1 didn't have any chassis-stiffening mods over the normal C4, so therefore... wet-noodle. And I never said it handled bad... just that the CHASSIS was a wet noodle. And God help you if you wanted to do any spirited driving with the top off. The C5 is stiffer with the top off than the C4 was with it on.
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Originally Posted by Irunelevens
The ZR1 didn't have any chassis-stiffening mods over the normal C4, so therefore... wet-noodle....
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#157
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Seriously you all have to get over this Domestic vs Rice Bullshit.
I leave for a day to get some work done and it's the same argument over and over again.
No one is going to flame for having pride in a certain make car, or for you having the ability to choose the car you want.
I am not a Fanboy or ricer, just an opinionated engineer (who usually sides with the underdog for conversations sake).
Some companies are beeter at producing certain "niche" vehicles. American make Big Displacement Tq Monsters, the Japanese for the most part produce smaller higher reving motors, the English can't do ****, germans by far make the smoothest motors, while the Italisn exotic are that extotic (most other italian cars are POS).
GM outsorced the Ecotec to Toyota because they couldn't design a motor that could meet the federal regulations and GM's power Goals..... Toyota Copied the sb2.2 motor to make the v8 that they use in the craftsman/nascar racing series.
Any american/japanese car company can build a production car to destroy the Veyron/Mclaren f1/Enzo (look at the turbo ultima gtr's) just for bragging rights but there is no point becuase they don't have a foothold in that market (we'll see if the cadillac Cien ever makes it into production).
How many would buy a $500k chevy/ford/Nissan opposed to a Ferrari/lambo/Aston
you take your 500k chevy in for service they give you a Cobalt or impala loner and send you on your way, you take in your benz, ferrari, or aston and they have a chef making breakfast, masseuse for a massage, and an equal value loner for you to drive.
Not to mention not having to worry about an 18yr old porter driving your corvette over curb and and ripping off a rocker panel (personal experience
)
I leave for a day to get some work done and it's the same argument over and over again.
No one is going to flame for having pride in a certain make car, or for you having the ability to choose the car you want.
I am not a Fanboy or ricer, just an opinionated engineer (who usually sides with the underdog for conversations sake).
Some companies are beeter at producing certain "niche" vehicles. American make Big Displacement Tq Monsters, the Japanese for the most part produce smaller higher reving motors, the English can't do ****, germans by far make the smoothest motors, while the Italisn exotic are that extotic (most other italian cars are POS).
GM outsorced the Ecotec to Toyota because they couldn't design a motor that could meet the federal regulations and GM's power Goals..... Toyota Copied the sb2.2 motor to make the v8 that they use in the craftsman/nascar racing series.
Any american/japanese car company can build a production car to destroy the Veyron/Mclaren f1/Enzo (look at the turbo ultima gtr's) just for bragging rights but there is no point becuase they don't have a foothold in that market (we'll see if the cadillac Cien ever makes it into production).
How many would buy a $500k chevy/ford/Nissan opposed to a Ferrari/lambo/Aston
you take your 500k chevy in for service they give you a Cobalt or impala loner and send you on your way, you take in your benz, ferrari, or aston and they have a chef making breakfast, masseuse for a massage, and an equal value loner for you to drive.
Not to mention not having to worry about an 18yr old porter driving your corvette over curb and and ripping off a rocker panel (personal experience
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#158
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Originally Posted by Street Lethal
I disagree again. RPO ZO7 combined the previously available Z51 performance handling package with FX3 selective ride/ handling. The RPO ZO7 option used all heavy duty suspension parts, adjusting from firm to extremely firm. Regardless if this upgrade could have been had on any C4 model throughout 90-95, it was still far from a "wet noodle", and I noticed NO 'real' handling improvement when test driving the all new (then) C5.... ![Winky](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_wink.gif)
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2) If you couldn't feel a difference between a C4 and C5, you must have been out for a Sunday drive. They both handle well... the C5 is just ALOT better. Noticeably better.
#159
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Originally Posted by Irunelevens
1) Do you not understand what I mean when I say "chassis stiffness?" ![The Judge](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_judge.gif)
2) If you couldn't feel a difference between a C4 and C5, you must have been out for a Sunday drive. They both handle well... the C5 is just ALOT better. Noticeably better.
![The Judge](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_judge.gif)
2) If you couldn't feel a difference between a C4 and C5, you must have been out for a Sunday drive. They both handle well... the C5 is just ALOT better. Noticeably better.
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Originally Posted by bboyferal
Guys, the C4 didn't handle BAD, but it was not as trackable as the C5, not even the ZR-1 with its upgraded suspension components.