Tire rubbage after LCA relocation bracket installation?
10-28-2008, 02:38 PM
#21
Centering an axle is not hard at all, and I take the time to talk with my customers. So if he were to buy a PHB from me, I'd make sure he'd know how to work it. Not that it's hard, and I wasn't the first company to suggest an adjustable PHB... 
And it's clearly off, some folks are smart enough to understand the geometry issues that stem from lowering the body mount of the PHB while the axle side remains the same height from the ground. The PHB becomes angled, and the effective distance between the two mounting points changes. You use an adjustable length PHB to restore the length you need to get the body to sit properly again over top of the axle.
Silly me for admittedly assuming it's pretty obvious (as others did) and not spelling it out for everyone, but thank you to allmotor for allowing me the opprotunity to explain.
And it's clearly off, some folks are smart enough to understand the geometry issues that stem from lowering the body mount of the PHB while the axle side remains the same height from the ground. The PHB becomes angled, and the effective distance between the two mounting points changes. You use an adjustable length PHB to restore the length you need to get the body to sit properly again over top of the axle.
Silly me for admittedly assuming it's pretty obvious (as others did) and not spelling it out for everyone, but thank you to allmotor for allowing me the opprotunity to explain.
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Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
10-28-2008, 02:58 PM
#22
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Centering an axle is not hard at all, and I take the time to talk with my customers. So if he were to buy a PHB from me, I'd make sure he'd know how to work it. Not that it's hard, and I wasn't the first company to suggest an adjustable PHB...
And it's clearly off, some folks are smart enough to understand the geometry issues that stem from lowering the body mount of the PHB while the axle side remains the same height from the ground. The PHB becomes angled, and the effective distance between the two mounting points changes. You use an adjustable length PHB to restore the length you need to get the body to sit properly again over top of the axle.
Silly me for admittedly assuming it's pretty obvious (as others did) and not spelling it out for everyone, but thank you to allmotor for allowing me the opprotunity to explain.
And it's clearly off, some folks are smart enough to understand the geometry issues that stem from lowering the body mount of the PHB while the axle side remains the same height from the ground. The PHB becomes angled, and the effective distance between the two mounting points changes. You use an adjustable length PHB to restore the length you need to get the body to sit properly again over top of the axle.
Silly me for admittedly assuming it's pretty obvious (as others did) and not spelling it out for everyone, but thank you to allmotor for allowing me the opprotunity to explain.
10-28-2008, 03:48 PM
#23
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I have Sport lines Springs and they realy lower the car alot. My tires used to rub on one side on off ramps/hard corners . The adj Panard is a MUST .as the geometry is deffinitly changed. I hve just finished installing LCA, and LCA Reloc,Ad Panard and Panard Reloc, along with 3 Pnt Sub frames .With the added weight and lack off clearance(betweenupper and lwr Panards) UMI sugested BMR or Strano spring. I've ordered some and that should put everything right.If you get a chance check out some threads on Eibach SportLines,none of which are to happy with them. Look Good ,perform not so good.
10-28-2008, 04:21 PM
#24
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It IS obvious that that is what happens. At least to me, but I'm not a noob. Most of the people on here asking for help are, or at least don't understand why adjustable panhard rods are needed, and why the geometry is disrupted by lowering springs. That's why they ask for advice, or ask why things are happening, and instead of searching they make new threads. Thank you for explaining it for him to read. Now maybe he will understand why we are all telling him that he needs a PHR. I'm not trying to start anything with you, I just thought you came on a little strong by telling him to buy a PHR or Watts instead of explaining why the part is recommended, as you usually do (and are usually quite good at).
10-28-2008, 04:38 PM
#25
It IS obvious that that is what happens. At least to me, but I'm not a noob. Most of the people on here asking for help are, or at least don't understand why adjustable panhard rods are needed, and why the geometry is disrupted by lowering springs. That's why they ask for advice, or ask why things are happening, and instead of searching they make new threads. Thank you for explaining it for him to read. Now maybe he will understand why we are all telling him that he needs a PHR. I'm not trying to start anything with you, I just thought you came on a little strong by telling him to buy a PHR or Watts instead of explaining why the part is recommended, as you usually do (and are usually quite good at).
allmotor--
You seriously need to get your hate for me out of your system, or just out in the open.
My first post in this thread was post #17. Post #15 was from Dennis (and said nothing I don't agree with), and said basically the same thing. In fact here is the entire quote from BMR Sales as written in post #15, two *BEFORE* mine:
"Hello, an adjustable panhard is a really good idea along with a new set of lca's. It sounds like your brackets are not installed correctly. Our brackets and i believe umi's also are drilled on an arc. If the brackets are installed correctly your wheel base should not change at all."
In fact, it seems to imply that the UMI brackets are the issue (which is crap, and I wouldn't have the ***** to say that BMR brackets were the issue if that's what was on the car).
Can we please, please, PLEASE get back to the facts and have you understand I have as much priviledge to post about the products I sell as other vendors do. I'll accept you don't like me, but this is pretty blatantly obvious you think it's ok for some vendors, but not for me.
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www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
10-28-2008, 05:17 PM
#26
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Please excuse the quick photoshop job. Hope this helps everyone visualize what everyone is talking about when we all try to tell people how lowering the car shifts the rearend.
kthxbye.
the grey line is the axle/rearend
red = panhard rod
blue = panhard rod support
vertical skinny black lines at the ends = inside of wheels
short vertical black lines = mounting points
thick horizontal black line = body of vehicle.
kthxbye.
the grey line is the axle/rearend
red = panhard rod
blue = panhard rod support
vertical skinny black lines at the ends = inside of wheels
short vertical black lines = mounting points
thick horizontal black line = body of vehicle.
Last edited by allmotor; 10-29-2008 at 12:26 PM.
10-28-2008, 06:02 PM
#27
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allmotor--
You seriously need to get your hate for me out of your system, or just out in the open.
My first post in this thread was post #17. Post #15 was from Dennis (and said nothing I don't agree with), and said basically the same thing. In fact here is the entire quote from BMR Sales as written in post #15, two *BEFORE* mine:
"Hello, an adjustable panhard is a really good idea along with a new set of lca's. It sounds like your brackets are not installed correctly. Our brackets and i believe umi's also are drilled on an arc. If the brackets are installed correctly your wheel base should not change at all."
In fact, it seems to imply that the UMI brackets are the issue (which is crap, and I wouldn't have the ***** to say that BMR brackets were the issue if that's what was on the car).
Can we please, please, PLEASE get back to the facts and have you understand I have as much priviledge to post about the products I sell as other vendors do. I'll accept you don't like me, but this is pretty blatantly obvious you think it's ok for some vendors, but not for me.
You seriously need to get your hate for me out of your system, or just out in the open.
My first post in this thread was post #17. Post #15 was from Dennis (and said nothing I don't agree with), and said basically the same thing. In fact here is the entire quote from BMR Sales as written in post #15, two *BEFORE* mine:
"Hello, an adjustable panhard is a really good idea along with a new set of lca's. It sounds like your brackets are not installed correctly. Our brackets and i believe umi's also are drilled on an arc. If the brackets are installed correctly your wheel base should not change at all."
In fact, it seems to imply that the UMI brackets are the issue (which is crap, and I wouldn't have the ***** to say that BMR brackets were the issue if that's what was on the car).
Can we please, please, PLEASE get back to the facts and have you understand I have as much priviledge to post about the products I sell as other vendors do. I'll accept you don't like me, but this is pretty blatantly obvious you think it's ok for some vendors, but not for me.
I don't think that UMI brackets are the issue. I have had brackets from BMR on my car for over 3 years. I know that the holes in them are in an arc, so that changing them from the top to the bottom mounting place does not shift the rearend front to back. I'm sure UMI's are the same way. I stated in my first post that if the relocation brackets were installed wrong, it is possible that they could shift the rear end front to back. but he has bolt-ons which would be hard to screw up. A mechanic would definitely beable to figure a bolt on part out, and even a noob can. It's not difficult. The relocation brackets aren't the issue (although they COULD have been bolted on and then welded in such a way that shifts the rear end, but that is more than likely not the case and would be a very stupid and hard mistake to make).
Regardless, It is just disturbing to me to see any vendor just shove parts at people with no explanation as to why they should use them from an engineering stand point. Hell, a lot of engineering is just making improvements on already existing objects. That's what generated the whole aftermarket scene. It's just wrong to tell someone to buy something without an understandable explanation of why they should. You are usually good at explaining that, Sam. I apologize for jumping on you like that, especially when I overlooked Dennis' post like that. I just didn't like your approach.
I hope that my crappy picture helps everyone to visualize what happens when you lower a car, more specifically how the rear end is shifted laterally due to lowering. If anyone needs a legend to understand it, I will gladly include one. I just forgot to. I think that most anyone will understand what everything is, but I can go through and point out specifically what things are for those who may be confused.
10-28-2008, 06:15 PM
#28
Fair enough. I'm sorry you feel my approach was too strong. I'm sure it comes from the fact I'm always here and you see a lot of my posts.
I take issue with the fact you feel like I didn't explain it, and was trying to shove something down someone's throat. If you had ever taken the time to actually talk to me, you would know that's not at all my style. In fact I think most folks like me because I don't sell parts that aren't needed, and take the time to ask what the goals. I can't do that by e-mail, and prefer the personal service when details are involved (which is always as far as I'm concerned).
You have every right to disagree with how I do my day to day business, I know that I can't please everyone all the time, but I do my best and try. FWIW, I find it disturbing that you jump on my at every chance for reasons unknown to me. In fact, I'm still waiting to hear your rational about your "no" vote in the thread about my springs (and to find out your real name and see if you even bought them and could rightly give an opinion). So excuse me if I feel you are a little one-sided and looking to take me down. You aren't the first, and I'm sure won't be the last. It sort of comes with the territory.
On the topic, we all agree an adjustable PHB is needed here. And I will not apologize for pointing out a kit that could save him a few bucks if indeed he wanted to add adjustable LCA's as well. I'd think it'd be to my disadvantage and the customers advantage to not only offer, but point out a potential discount. I never said he needed both, only that he needed an adjustable PHB to recenter the body over the axle. I apologize for not addressing every single reason why that something that is, is.
I take issue with the fact you feel like I didn't explain it, and was trying to shove something down someone's throat. If you had ever taken the time to actually talk to me, you would know that's not at all my style. In fact I think most folks like me because I don't sell parts that aren't needed, and take the time to ask what the goals. I can't do that by e-mail, and prefer the personal service when details are involved (which is always as far as I'm concerned).
You have every right to disagree with how I do my day to day business, I know that I can't please everyone all the time, but I do my best and try. FWIW, I find it disturbing that you jump on my at every chance for reasons unknown to me. In fact, I'm still waiting to hear your rational about your "no" vote in the thread about my springs (and to find out your real name and see if you even bought them and could rightly give an opinion). So excuse me if I feel you are a little one-sided and looking to take me down. You aren't the first, and I'm sure won't be the last. It sort of comes with the territory.
On the topic, we all agree an adjustable PHB is needed here. And I will not apologize for pointing out a kit that could save him a few bucks if indeed he wanted to add adjustable LCA's as well. I'd think it'd be to my disadvantage and the customers advantage to not only offer, but point out a potential discount. I never said he needed both, only that he needed an adjustable PHB to recenter the body over the axle. I apologize for not addressing every single reason why that something that is, is.
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Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
10-29-2008, 07:54 AM
#30
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the grey line is the axle/rearend
red = panhard rod
blue = panhard rod support
vertical skinny black lines at the ends = inside of wheels
short vertical black lines = mounting points
thick horizontal black line = body of vehicle.
10-29-2008, 08:12 AM
#31
Sam, i did not say that umi's brackets where the problem, i stated that he did not have them installed correctly. Our bolt on brackets if not installed correctly will do the same thing. Everyones will. If they are put on correctly you can unbolt the rear of the lca and swing it through the arc and it should line up correctly with ever hole without the rear moving. Our brackets are drilled on an arc and so are ryans. If his rear moved they are not on correctly and need to be readjusted. I do not have any issues with ryan or umi's products and i have never or will never bash a competitors products. His products are not the issue improper installation is. If you want top get into a pissing match we can but i don't see the need for that, but thats your call.
10-29-2008, 08:19 AM
#32
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Sam, i did not say that umi's brackets where the problem, i stated that he did not have them installed correctly. Our bolt on brackets if not installed correctly will do the same thing. Everyones will. If they are put on correctly you can unbolt the rear of the lca and swing it through the arc and it should line up correctly with ever hole without the rear moving. Our brackets are drilled on an arc and so are ryans. If his rear moved they are not on correctly and need to be readjusted. I do not have any issues with ryan or umi's products and i have never or will never bash a competitors products. His products are not the issue improper installation is. If you want top get into a pissing match we can but i don't see the need for that, but thats your call.
at any rate, my picture above in post #26 shows that lowering the car shifts the rearend to the left and disrupts the geometry of the suspension. This can cause the rubbing over bumps/potholes etc that the OP is experiencing due to the wheel not having the same clearance within the wheel well.
