JD_AMG

With enough modification anything is possible, you could fly to the moon with your 2000 LS1 Camaro if you had the money. Honestly I would love to have a good IRS setup, but I don't see it being financially logical to do so when you could probably by a C5 for the same price of the work you would have to do.

lees02WS6

iTrader: (5)

That's true, and a C5 rear is an expensive part by itself. Add the frame you'd have to create for it, and the custom diff cover and you're in the red deep. It would still be nice project, just don't expect to get your money back.

lees02WS6

iTrader: (5)

The company is 21st Century Street Machines. Well yes, obviously, the C5 is supposed to be an improvement on the C4. The Viper also uses the Dana 44, almost identical to the C4 except for the fact that it also uses a separate upper control arm attached to the frame rails. So, there is weight to your statement. However, I don't think the C4 D44 will exhibit the poor behavior of a swing axle suspension. The vette used the design from '63-'96, and the C4s were actually considered good handling machines, except when GM changed or dropped option packages. But, thats a reflection of the shocks, springs, and choice of sway bar size (sound familiar?) not a reflection of the Dana 44 so much.

The advantage to the C4 suspension is there are lots of them around cheap.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Statement, what "weight" statement? That doesn't say anything and if it does, POST IT! Even so, WHAT DOES THAT PROVE IN THE REAL WORLD? The Mustang IRS's weigh around twice of what their SRA does, yet saves around 50% of the unsprung weight. What did that improve on the almost exact same chassis?

So with what you stated, what did the IRS improve per se? C4's were considered decent, but not necessarily good for the time. You may not think so, but I KNOW because I've HAD C4's before and yes, they have had the VERY SIMILAR DYNAMICS as SWING AXLES as OTHER POORLY DESIGNED IRS's have. They are:

1. excessive positive camber upon rebound (not helpful).
2. excessive negative camber upon compression (helps, but not if it cannot be controlled).
3. Negative camber on outer wheel, positive camber on inner wheel when turning.

These qualities are not good if they cannot be properly controlled. THEY MUST BE PROPERLY CONTROLLED OTHERWISE THEY'RE USELESS. No matter what I and others I worked with tried, it still was around the same as the 4th Gen I used, which was my street and track vehicle.

And YES, on the C4 I have tried several varying spring rates and valvings amongst the leaf springs and shocks along with adjustible sway bars, yet still it was very difficult to beat all of my 4th Gen Camaros with their respective improvements.

So what are you waiting for? You've told others to cut and try. Why aren't you? Apparently if it's so inexpensive, get a team together and try. Can you and the other shops also guarantee that the rear structure modification will yield the same strength and safety after the modification?

Earlier you've also mentioned that you're not sure if there was some sort of coil-over kit for the rear shocks, which I can confirm that there are, yet when implementing coil-overs, what truly is being gained over leaf springs? Don't bet anything on vibration frequency interference or what some call "cross-talk" because in the manner the transverse leaf spring is mounted, it's so small where it can make a difference in a closed circuit track, but negligible for the street. Or let me guess, unsprung weight? Those big ugly leaf still weight less than most Ferrous alloy coil springs with usable spring rates.

Again, you can be different, and that's okay, but read through the OP's requests and you'll see what that OP is looking for, which is "improvement" and not just chopping.

ThoR294

iTrader: (6)

IRS is pointless in our cars. /endthread

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

1. Before you ask to send a check, you need to organise and register your business. Post your plans then let investors in. Leave Ralph Nader out of it because I have disagreements with his ideaologies, however I believe that if something is going to be made and sold, IT SHOULD WORK and IMPROVE something. I make no apologies for that. AFA showing the C4 that it does the same thing, read my previous thread. Whilst it IS NOT as bad, there same qualities are present, which does affect grip and overall optimal handling.

I am currently employed as a materials engineer. I've been at work for over 4 years as one. I'm NOT an expert however I've worked with suspensions for nearly 15 years. I've also have been willing to read into those who also have had experience nevertheless. And FWIW, I'd like a properly designed IRS, not some overprice POS with empty promises.

Also, How many people have had Watts links? I've designed them for other cars as well. Bear in mind that I know of people who are engineers for several teams in the AUS V8 Supercar Series, and those cars use Watts links as well. And YES, I can tell what works or not by looking at their designs, but even so, have you noticed how many around here have used the Fays2 Watts? Have you tried ANY Watts links? I have tried over 13 other them on various SRA's, so I do know how their various forms do work.

I've also been underneath many IRS cars as well, and yes, those I've improved as well through some very minute but very effective mods (e.g. bushings redesign, partial modification of the "stamped steel" with no failures so far after 10 years).

Please, name calling makes you look more like a "loser" than I. Just stick to being objective and get your idea working, which btw, got any of those designs to work? know their dynamics? got a working prototype? I've got money, however I know what return of investment possiblities than I'd rather have those who speak about doing it perform that instead since they just want "any IRS" so badly, yet they still haven't offered one proof of it working in the real world.

Anybody whose done it, please post your results here and become a sponsor. I'll fly right back to my 2nd house in the States and get my Camaro back in order to try if it works for myself. I'll spend at least 2000 USD on the part, but no more (but that's just me).

You're making the statements that it's possible, so the burden of proof is on you. I can go either way.

AFA a wet blanket? Yeah, nice one... You haven't submitted one proof of what works at all, so now it's down to name calling and false accusations of me "not sleeping at night", yet are you aware that many engineers get into heated debates all of the time without throwing one fist, or even raising their voice?. Thank you for turning this into something it doesn't need to be, because now the mods will probably lock it.

Again, different is OKAY, but if you've noticed your posts, they're sound more like "marketing" than any description of how they really work.

Now, I'll ask again. Can somebody offer a design that will completely improve in almost every aspect on the current SRA of the Camaro? I and others shall be standing by, very patiently.

lees02WS6

iTrader: (5)

What are the going rates for a new solid axle? You want IRS for $2000 or less? Well, that sounds reasonable.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Yep, now you're beginning to see where I'm headed with this, eh?

ThoR294

iTrader: (6)

because its not worth it to put IRS in, when people are swapping IRS out for a solid axle...

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

That's the way I'm observing it so far, but who knows? I'm much more concerned with results than just a design per se.

van454

iTrader: (1)

Funny that these irs swap threads always end up as a pissing match. I think that it is fair to say that a properly set up IRS is the better option,and it would be up to the indivdual car owner as to whether they think it is worth the hassle/cost. Again, why not discuss how someone could go about fitting a C4 IRS (or other) properly, so that they could set it up to get the best from it. I think people get very wrapped up in what they want from their car and think it is the only way. I wouldn't fit an irs to be different, or even to improve the handling by a lot. I would fit one to give me a little improvement to handling and a bigger improvement to ride, I drive my car everyday and it only sees the track/skidpan once or twice a year. To me the biggest advantage of irs is that you can have ride AND handling. These threads end up being a waste of time for people searching for answers, some of us would be more interested in seeing how rather than hear about why/why not from people who haven't done it.

americanexpress

does a decked out GTO handle any better than a decked out SRA Fbody? all others being equal is there really a difference?

Darksol

Those are the people who are only interested in the 1/4 mile. I have NEVER heard of the F-40 with the SRA. But if you have a pic of one I'll send my apology.

Yes, I bought a WS6, doesn't mean going fast in a straight line was my first priority. And a lot of people seem to have a interest in putting a well designed irs into a f-body. If a package came together for say $3500 I bet it would sell. Hell, thats only $500 more than a Strange 12 bolt after you add in all the bs involved. (backing plates, 4 channel abs, ect...) As much as it goes again the grain for a lot of people who think F-body=1/4 mile only, the desire to mod these cars (or cars with ls series engines for our hybrid brethren) is what we seem to have in common. Why is it so hard for some to understand that having each wheel connected to the road without effecting another wheel so hard?

Statements like irs is not meant for F-body is like saying, why turbo a ls? Never had it from factory. Must not be a good idea then, right?

mesospeedy

iTrader: (8)

99 tara, you took the words right out of my mouth!!! I've been looking into an IRS swap for a while now. Just because all the haters don't think IRS is worth it doesn't mean it isn't. And if you think its pointless, then don't put IRS on your f**king car!!!!!!!!!! For years people have been putting LS motors in older cars to make them more powerful and more streetable, so why can't we improve on the suspension in the same way? I can't afford a super car, and I know IRS can't turn my car into one, but I would like to get my Z to handle as close to one as possible. No real top end super car has a straight axle! Drag racing is the only reason people with GTO, Cobras, etc. want to swap for straight 9". Sorry if this offends anybody, just my opinion on the subject. I'll stop talking now so all those who disagree can talk **** about what I've stated and tell me why they are right and I'm an idiot!!!!

JD_AMG

I don't remember seeing anyone hating...
But clearly you don't get it, you claim you "can't afford a super car" but how much do you think a IRS swap would cost? You could most likely buy a C5 Z06 for cost of the Fbody + the parts and swap.
Honestly why not try proven setups first? You'll be spending worlds less money and time and still getting amazing results...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weWQHijkSU8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMGVq...eature=related
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/H...Aug_702088.htm

jason02Z

iTrader: (10)

i think its a pretty cool idea..hey if you dont mind cutting up the car too much and having a 2 seater f-body put a tq. tube in and mount the tranny in the rear like a vet. they still 60' to 1.30's you might have to wait 40 years to make changes to the 4th gen. pro touring 69 camaro's dont get ppl saying why would you do that when you can use what came in it.

mesospeedy

iTrader: (8)

JD AMG, as far as affordability, I do get it. I know that a "proper" IRS swap would cost a quite a bit. I am also using proven setups and constantly researching and trying new things. But the amazing results from this may be even better with different rearend. It could actually make it worse, who knows! The IRS swap isn't something I'm 100% on, but seems like a great idea. By hating, I was referring to all those who simply say it isn't worth it and have no real comparison or knowledge on the subject. I realize there are some on here that do know what they are talking about, I mean no disrespect to any of them, but until somebody tries this and has back to back results with IRS vs. stock w/ good suspesion upgrades, we really don't know what will be better. If the original poster has the money to make it work, I say support him! Those who have the knowledge and ability, help him figure it out. Then if the improvement is not worth the time and money, these threads won't clog up the forum anymore! As far as me affording a super car, if I hadn't already invested ~$30k (including the $12,500 price of the car) in my camaro over the last 7 years, buying a vette would be the way to go. But I was 19 years old when I bought my car, and a C5 was out of my reach, and I never really planned on having the money to spend on the camaro after buying it, or saving what I invested in it and using it to buy a vette instead.

*Disclaimer* This post is not intended to get anyone upset! I appoligize in advance if anyone is offended by what I have stated. It is only my opinion and not that of LS1tech or any of its affiliates.

bob442

So I'm looking into a IRS swap for my F-body, for a few reasons,
1, I'm building a track car, only track car, and maybe some 1/4 times for the sake of showing the numbers.
2, I want to drift, a true drift car has a nasty rear camber, and adjustments to the IRS for handling while burning off your tires
3, A quick change rear end so i can drive the track queen from track to track.


Do I have the right reasons for wanting a IRS? I don't want a Corvette, because its a Corvette. I want a Trans Am, because its a Trans Am. If I wanted a car that came with factory with an IRS and a 600hp motor, I would buy one, but I wouldn't be able to buy a Trans Am with that. I only want to build a Trans Am.

Does anyone want to disscuss these wants, and gains, and not argue them with me? If anyone can point out that a solid rear end would suppourt those wants and needs please say so, and prove your Concept of Theory. I could open a new thread, but I found this one, so I will hijack it for now.

On a side note, people who swap a solid axel from a IRS, they want to do 1300 WHP launches on 1/4 mile, straight, flat track. Supra's have it done all the time, with NO INTENT of taking the car on a closed loop track. I want to build a track car. so i'm doing the opposite.

I don't want to shoot for a 'decent' handling bolt on moded F body. I am in search of a reliable, aftermarket suppourted rear end, that has a suppourted subframe, or only needs to mount to the body of a car with 4 hand made brackets, like the C4 swap pictured(plus shocks/struts. I wouldn't have to put in this reply if I didn't read they were only designed to suppourt under 300 WHP, as I am shooting for 450-500 RWHP.

Anyone feeling to discuss this further, please PM me, or ask me to post a new topic, or post in here. thank you all for your positive and negative input.

BOB

JD_AMG

Couple things here. First are you familiar with the D1 series? Id assume you are but Im asking because I thought you would notice that there are solid axle cars competing and winning. An infamous drift car, the Toyota Ae86 is a solid axle car and known for drifting. An S197 Mustang actually won recently if I remember correctly, and there is also a '69 Camaro competing as well. There is also a member on this board "BubaDrift" who competes in an El Camino and a 3rd gen Camaro.
The problem with drifting the 4th gens isn't the solid axle but rather getting more steering angle.
Heres a 4th gen drifting, (a member here) and the car is not setup to drift by any means also has a stalled auto...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbNHnE_m0Vo
Heres Bubba Drift in his 3rd gen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ERW_DyecZU

bob442

i'll take this into consideration, and not over look it, or be stubourn about it. i'm going to do my best with my homework. Too bad i have a bad track record of never doing it in school, but i still passed!

On the other hand, i'm still having troubles finding an affordible rear end, with a quick change, and not suppourted by half shafts.