pjb

iTrader: (2)

the whole issue with this is complete and accurate information.

your 2 statements I quoted above are clearly contradictory. the first one says you liked the ride with the konis and stock springs. the second one says you had the best spring and shock combo and hated it.

one thread left readers thinking that everything worked out perfect. your second thread clearly pointed out it was less then perfect, why not just have the info from the second thread added to the original? that would have kept readers informed rather then not catch there might be problems.

I do agree that most upgrades won't bring much return value to a vehicle, but some things will clearly HURT the value.

your 10 years of experience (I have at least 3 times that, which just means I'm old and your not) might show that you dabble in something and soon get rid of it and start something else. not that it means much, but by comparison, one of my bikes is a harley that I bought new 25 years ago and has been modified/customized many times (all by me) and I'm the original owner of my 98 SS (which is quite similar in appearance to yours). you have already stated that your current suspension setup is something you want to eventually get rid of and replace.

bottom line is this - can you cut stock springs and get the lowered look while maintaining a ride that some people (mostly kids that don't know better) can tolerate? maybe yes

is it a good suspension setup? hardly

don't mislead people by saying other wise.

I really wish you well with it and hope that you get the issues worked out to your satisfaction. did you try my suggestion about the shock shafts in the other thread?

josh99ta

iTrader: (1)

Again, you're missing the point.

Most people here think Strano springs and Koni shocks, or any form of lowering spring (Hotchkis, BMR, etc) are the "best" spring combo, yet that isn't true. For them it may be, but for me it wasn't. For a weekend car it would be fine, but for a daily driver it's too much spring rate for me. When I was in my early 20s it was barely tolerable, which is why I ran through so many different suspension setups, trying to find one I liked. I was told I was crazy and that I already had the best setup possible, because everyone on here said it was the best, but for me it wasn't.

Because the issue is 100% completely unrelated to the cut springs, which is what this thread is about. Before I did the UMM and Bilsteins I was on cut springs with the stock DeCarbons, and surprisingly the ride was still very good. After swapping in the Bilsteins and doing the UMM the ride definitely firmed up, handling increased significantly, but I picked up some extra noise, which is almost certainly related to the UMM (and whether the shock rod is hitting or if I didn't tighten it down enough). That's another issue entirely, that you're trying to pin on the cut springs. That is a mistruth and you spreading misinformation, not me. I hope that clears up any confusion.

Down the road, but not any time soon. Honestly I'll probably never get around to it, since this setup works so well, but originally my plans were to do airbag springs all around, but for the time being to try this setup out just to see. A few years back I never would have dreamed of cutting springs, to me it was "ruining a car," then I rode in a car with cut springs that were done the right way, and it was shocking how good the ride was.

Again, missing the point. My car, as is, rides BETTER than any F-Body I've ever ridden in with aftermarket springs. That includes a whole slew of springs including nearly all the big name springs that people usually swap in like DMS, BMR, LG G2 springs, HAL QA1s, Eibach Pro Kits and Sportlines, etc. I haven't ridden in a car with Hotchkis springs, Strano springs, or Swift springs, but looking at the rates I can see how they'd ride similar to other setups I've owned and/or ridden/driven. The only F-Body that rivals my car's ride, in my opinion, was my car on Konis with stock springs. I just don't like a lot of spring rate for a daily driver. Others may. It's a difference of opinion.

I'm older and I do know better, and this setup flat out works. You can choose to believe it or refute it, but that doesn't change the fact that it just works. I've had people ride/drive my car as is and they can't believe I cut springs because the car rides and handles so well. Take that for what it's worth.

There is no misleading except for on your part by refuting that this is a legitimately good suspension setup. For me, my suspension setup is good. Yet you say it isn't. What makes a suspension setup good? For me it's the ride I want, the handling I want, and the stance I want. This setup has all of those things. Therefore to me it is good. And I guarantee if you were to ride in it or drive it you would have no choice but to agree. Yet somehow despite all that you still tell me it's not a good setup. What sense does that make? I've got a ton of F-Body suspension experience and know exactly what my car rides like, yet you tell me it's no good just because it employs cut springs, based on no facts or personal experience at all. It makes you look bad.

I'm not going to waste my breath any further. Anybody with half a brain can read this thread and the other and see exactly what the score is and what to expect if they wanted to venture down this path, and if they're realistic about the results the want then they'll get them by going this avenue. I've been on these forums forever, I've answered a ton of questions from people, gotten helped by tons of people, learned a lot, and hopefully helped a little. I don't put misinformation out. I was just sharing my experience because in the past I thought cut springs were a huge no-no, but I found out I was wrong and that I had been spreading misinformation. That's why I made this thread. Facts and experience stand out above opinion based on nothing or a personal theory that cut springs are garbage. Simply not the case.

pjb

iTrader: (2)

I never had an issue with you cutting the springs, why do you keep saying that?

I do think that the whole package of cut springs, modified upper mounts (which you say your machine shop did a crappy job), modified bumpstops, and now your talking about drilling holes in the top of the shock towers to have clearance for the shock shafts, is turning into a butcher job. you already said konis on stock springs gave you the best ride. do you think the lowered look is worth cutting up and drilling all the parts? I guess that you do. I would suggest Konis with stock springs on lower perch and hose mod in the rear. Change the rear bumpstops (if you have the SS type) to the standard camaro ones, call it a day. thats my current setup. its sits a little too high for me after having previously been on DMS springs (great stance, but a little firm ride), so I'm going with strano springs that should arrive today or tomorrow. my plan has always been to keep my car forever, if you like to "mod" yours and get rid of it in a short time you are probably on the right road. just for the good of the community keep all your issues and gains linked together instead of putting up seperate threads (which was the only reason I had any input in this to begin with. Just wanted to have readers get the full story instead of getting half of it.) Still don't care what you do to YOUR car.

z28bryan

iTrader: (7)

This thread is rediculous.

Ride quality is subjective to ones opinion. Someone might like riding on cement bumpstops with springs cut 3 coils. They aren't wrong for thinking so. I'm pretty sure that if I rode in his car that I'd hate it.

I think a lot of people on here wouldn't know how to judge a good handling car if their life depended on it. I don't know how you could unless you had some track experience.. I know I didn't really "get it" until after I really pushed my car on the track and compared both setups.

That being said, I give the OP credit for experimenting and trying out different ideas. Most people realistically don't have time to do something like that, so someone's gotta do it.

josh99ta

iTrader: (1)

It's not a butcher job. The machine shop didn't do it the way I wanted it to be done. One is at an angle, but then again maybe the angle on the other is wrong too, we're in uncharted waters with the UMM, which is cutting stuff up but for much more beneficial issues, which means it's not a butcher job. It's going the extra mile (as it's obviously I'm not afraid to do). If drilling through the strut towers makes it a hack job then go tell 75% of Tech that has the wire mod where they drilled through their shock towers that they ruined their car too (it doesn't make any different structurally).

Absolutely. I'm a very visual person and a car has to look just right to me and for me if it's my car. Aside from wheels, the stance is the single most critical part of making a car a head-turner to me.
Been there, done that, and I'm trumping that setup with what I'm doing in this setup. Stranos sit too high for me, and they also have too much rate for me and what I prefer in a daily driver ride.

How am I doing that? What I'm doing makes no difference whether I sell the car or keep it until the wheels fall off. I plan on keeping this car for a long while, and this suspension setup will be under it for a considerably amount of time.

This thread was about cut springs and my experience with it, and when I did make this thread I hadn't swapped in the Bilsteins or did the UMM. Cut springs = success in my experience. I gained noise after the UMM and Bilsteins, which I made a separate thread about, because it's unrelated to this thread. The springs are known good, I picked the noise up elsewhere, which is why I made a thread to pinpoint it. I think the community can clearly see that when looking at the threads together or separately.

wannafbody

iTrader: (2)

I'd be careful about modifiying the front upper spring mount. Part of that mount is a built in bumpstop that acts as a higher rate spring-which is what you are essentially doing with the Koni bumpstop. I'd find out the "springrate" of the bumpstop you are planning on using. I know some MCU bumpstops can have springrates in excess of 600# when compressed.

josh99ta

iTrader: (1)

The mount itself does not act as a bumpstop. The bumpstop is what acts as the bumpstop, and I know the rates. If the mount acted as a bumpstop it's be infinity # because it's got a solid metal insert in it. Solid metal doesn't have a spring rate.

wannafbody

iTrader: (2)

What rate bumpstop are you using?

josh99ta

iTrader: (1)

You trying to test me or something? LOL I've already said it in this thread or the other, Koni's 40mm bumpstops up front, and the progressive Z28 style bumpstops in the rear with 1/2" removed and a taper added back in.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspensio...es-inside.html

As you can see, the stock bumpstops, which most people just reuse, aren't really that progressive at all, and a big reason why lowered cars ride like crap. Between swapping out the bumpstops for a much nicer, more progressive hit when I get on them, and the UMM to get travel back, it rides a LOT nicer.

leadfoot4

iTrader: (1)

bingo!!!

josh99ta

iTrader: (1)

I'll update the other thread, as it's the one directly related to the UMM, but the noise I was getting, which was the only drawback to this entire setup, was from the top of the shock rod hitting the strut tower, as the UMM write-up clearly says will happen if you don't cut the top of the shock rod off or drill through the strut tower. I was hoping it wouldn't be that noticeable, but there was a lot of contact going on. Nothing got messed up, but I did have to remedy the situation. It's golden now though. Car rides like a dream.

wannafbody

iTrader: (2)

I posted a thread at FRRAX a few days ago about adding bumpstops to the front of a 4th gen (prior to being aware of this thread) and the response was that in doing so you may be changing the front roll center which could affect front to rear balance. This could potentially produce some odd handling charactaristics when pushed to the edge.

josh99ta

iTrader: (1)

I would never add bumpstops. I would however replace them with a more progressive bumpstop, and I did. The only thing more progressive bumpstops would make would make the car handle better if you ever hit the stops, because instead of the rates spiking on the stock bumpstops which aren't progressive and extremely stiff, it'll ramp up much more slowly and predictably.

BTW: I had to go Christmas shopping so I was able to travel my normal 25 mile route to work. It's amazing how much better the car rides. Maybe the noise from the UMM and the upper shock rod hitting the strut tower was bothering my **** retentiveness, and maybe it was limiting travel once the contact was made, but all I know is the car rides a LOT better now. It's so much more smooth over road imperfections, along with being dead silent. I couldn't be happier with this setup...correction, I've never been happier with a suspension setup before. I'm flat out impressed with how nice the car rides.

Keep in mind my priorities were as follows...

1. Stance (low)
2. Ride quality
3. Handling

For people who want a really sporty setup and top notch handling this isn't the setup for you. But it handles considerably better than stock with the upgraded shocks and the lower center of gravity, and the ride and stance are top notch IMO. The only real issue I have in handling is a little more body roll than preferred when really pushing the car, but I plan on upgrading the front and rear sway bars to balance that out. Then it'll be perfect for ride quality and handling IMO.

78novacaine

iTrader: (2)

how does the car launch with this setup? i am thinking better than an aftermarket lowering spring due to the lower spring rate allowing better weight transfer. because i am looking at doing something similar, but most likely going to do 1.5 front and back because i like the raked stance that my car has now, but it just needs to be lower. i also have Koni 4/4's going under the car, so ride quality/handling shouldn't be a problem.

josh99ta

iTrader: (1)

They definitely would be better at the strip as the lower spring rates would allow more weight transfer. The Konis would be a good compliment to them, and since you're not cutting too much (I'm at the edge of what I would consider a safe range to cut while still retaining ride, and that's with the UMM mod) you should be fine. With the shocks dialed down up front it'll help too. I ran my Konis on stock springs for a while and when I went to the strip I always put them on full soft up front and disconnected the driver's side swaybar endlink. Cut plenty of 1.6X 60's with that setup, and the limiting factor definitely wasn't the springs (wasn't making enough power to get much lower).

ls1zfast

Good thread. Thanks to Josh for taking the time to post is efforts. Also, thanks for taking the time to argue with sell-outs who seem to think that the more money you spend on a car, the "better" it is.

Some of the posts in this section amaze me... i dont see them as much in the other sections but they seem rampant in the CHASSIS... threads. This bashing of anyone who goes out and does their own thing. In my mind, people like Josh are the real "gearheads"; people who go out of their way to create/fabricate something on their own. Anyone can let some fast-talking part-pusher convince them into spending thousands and then bolt parts on their ride. Not anyone can start out with nothing and create something better. As with everything else, real knowledge comes from real experience, not the internet.

Its almost laughable... this guy goes to all the trouble of his actual work and posting it on this website and morons like JAMWRS6 and PJB bash him and want to bring a bunch of erroneous factoids (most of which are false) into a conversation that had nothing to do with them or their bullshit opinions. Just couldnt take someone writing a thought-out article about a practice you despise because your daddy told you it wasnt cool so he could sell you more parts... business as usual.

leadfoot4

iTrader: (1)

There's mention of the "UMM" in this thread, but no mention of what it is. I punched in "UMM" to the search function, and got a lot of mention of the UMM, but no explanation of what the modification actually is. Is there a "sticky" somewhere that details what this modification is, as I'm curious....

Thanks!

josh99ta

iTrader: (1)

ls1z, I do tend to agree with you on the differences of throwing money at a car versus going the extra mile, even if it's unconventional, to achieve the results you really want. It wouldn't be the first time something unconventional has gotten knocked.

leadfoot, here is the UMM thread from JasonWW. I was a bit shy to dive into it, but once I did it really is a cinch to do. A hacksaw, Sawzall, or bandsaw can make the cut with a little effort, and a hole saw or heat can remove the insert of the part you cut off and have to relocate to the top (or you can use a stack of washers too). It seems like a lot of work, but it's really not that bad, and the results really surprised the heck out of me. I couldn't believe the difference it made in the ride.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspensio...ock-mount.html

pjb

iTrader: (2)

my original involvement in this thread was not to bash anyone, but merely to direct readers to another thread created by the original poster. the only reason I did that was because this thread left readers thinking it all worked out perfectly and the other thread mentioned a few problems that were encountered. the original poster seemed to be offended that I linked readers to the second thread and from there it got kind of childish both ways. I did offer some suggestions to try to help with the problems, and last I saw he had the problems worked out to his satisfaction. I still think it was worthwhile to link readers to the other thread because they could very well encounter the same problems he documented. if you think that makes me a moron then I guess people would have to decide for themselves who the moron is.

ls1zfast

Fair enough.. its easy to get emotional.

I do think that people seem to get ragged on here pretty often for doing their own thing and going outside the bounds of "tested" setups (coincidentally the setups that cost the most and sell from ls1tech sponsors). This seems to be a trend the last few years on tech.. maybe its just my imagination.

I would say that if someone does or doesnt do a modification based on what they read in one INTERNET chat forum... that person will struggle in any circumstances. A ten minute conversation with a local hot rodder can be worth more than a months "research" on the web; which is rife with misinformation.

Nick