pewter2002

iTrader: (4)

I wish the Watts was $350! Then again, would it be engineered with Aurora rod ends, super hd axle clamps etc for a chassis that is almost 10 years old? The cost of R&D is spread out over the cost of the LIMITED number of units sold! I wish my Konis were $350 also instead of $850! Oh yeah, they would be called KYB, Bilstein maybe Qa1 - good stuff to be sure (I have Bilsteins for now) but to get "better" (adjustability, warranty, tech support ride characteristics etc.) it seems that the cash outlay is exponentially higher! The drag race and autocross guys (not me) know what it takes to move up a bracket etc. BTW, anything for the street needs to be VERY strong to take the long term, day in, day out pounding from potholes without being torn down, inspected etc. That costs at the parts/engineering level down to the consumer level. Too expensive for what it does? Don't buy it! Really sticky tires too much dough? Dont buy 'em! Big brakes, rims, stereo, race seats, paint, springs etc too much for the gain... you get the idea! To each his own!

redtail2426

iTrader: (10)

i personally see no benefit to its use unless you are running really high horspower and have a lot of suspension travel in the back,and want to tweak your launch at the track.My buddy has one,im not sure why,he only drives around town less then 1k miles a year,has never been to the track or autocrossed before.Unless you are very competitive in autocross,or are perfecting a wheelie,then its really just useless and added weight

tillery

iTrader: (4)

A panhard bar is a cheap engineered piece to locate the rear in a car.

duh

iTrader: (16)

That it is, but it works for 99.9% of people. And truthfully, IMO the suspension travel in the rear of a car (even a stock one) is not necessarily enough to worry about the panhard rod causing issues. Now I know that these have been designed and tested, installed and run on a consistent bases. The one thing I want to know...has anyone one done back to back testing? Say a Skid pad and a slalom run with the bar and then with the Watts? While they're at it take lots of photos so that you can see the difference in body roll. I'm kinda interested to see real world results. Now as was previously stated the lower the car and the higher the spring rates, the less you'll need to worry about the bar, since you're lowering it's amount of travel. I totally agree that the Watts is a better design and I'm not arguing that it wouldn't be useful on the street, but how about some hard evidence? Maybe I'm just crazy.....

tillery

iTrader: (4)

Cheap was meant by a solution. Yes it does work for what its intended porpose. To locate the rear. Your right this other setup isn't needed, its just a peace I like and notice an improvment over what I have. Skid pad testing would be nice to support its benifits. Local f body enthusiast that have driven my car or took a ride during each suspension mod. Are wanting a lot I have done and see a huge difference. Its not needed for most. But I fall out of tghat catagory. Again. Its streetability. Yes very.. does. He need it, that's a personall choice.

duh

iTrader: (16)

Don't get me wrong, I know it was meant as a cheap solution for GM's design of the rear suspension on these cars.....the fact that it was originally installed in 1982 gives a clue to that. I'm just more curious to know much benefit there is to the swap. If you think about how large the arc is that the panhard rod makes it only moves the rear axle mm's in either direction. Now with wide wheels and tires this can be an issue as every little bit of space matters, but my question is, how much does it adversely affect the handling. No offense but the "a$$" dyno, as I like to refer to it, is not known for being very accurate. I have personally experienced guys that state "I can feel the car is faster." Go to the track and they actually have slowed down. I personally like the design of watts as it does keep the axle centered in it's up and down movement as compared to the panhard rod, but is it really that much better? If you want ultimate handling, why not just swap in the C4 IRS and go to town? The best handling cars on the planet run 4 wheel independent for a reason. I'm just trying to get the brain juices flowing.

tillery

iTrader: (4)

Well for me I didnt mind the panhard bar in a four link or ladder bar rear suspension. But street driving these setups is a pain in the *** cause it limits suspension articulation. With the Watts Link it turns a solid rear it semi rigid. Plus it allows the user to really customize their roll center. Best way was described to me by others was my car has less roll, feels connected to the road. That my car feels it has more grip either going straight or turning any direction. Faster response on any surface im on. Contrary to what some believe. Daily driving does work a suspension to its full abilities. Weather its rapid stops, a quick maneuver to avoid anything in the road. Taking off ramps,etc. For me I dont feel the rear of my car sway like it used to. And I do have aftermarket sway bars/shocks, and PHB. Will it win me any Auto cross races? No. But coupled with other pieces it will help me control the power my engine is making. At the 1/4 mile. I was able to cut better short times on street tires. And was launching straighter. So I feel its working. But what works for me may not for another. But again. When I refferd to as cheap. Its just a means to locate the rear. The Watts does the same. But allows More articulation. Its not for everyone. To a lot a PHB is just fine. GM didnt use a Watts cause of cost and production deadlines. Seen this same arguement pre internet.

99Bluz28

iTrader: (35)

IMO, anyone doubting the benefits of a Watts- link (Street or track) really just needs to do their research.
The only down side to the Watts Link is cost and complexity,compared to a PHB, and there's a fix for both of those!

1. Do your own thorough research.
2. Save up your Modification money longer.
3. Pay a good mechanic, to install it for you.

HAZ-Matt

iTrader: (8)

Well this is interesting.

Maybe it is overkill for the street. So are a lot of mods. SFCs are nearly completely useless for the street in a 4th gen with decent shocks. Hell, they are nearly useless on the track. The only thing that makes the Watts in the least bit not street friendly is the fact that it has 4 rod ends. And I dunno what brand rod ends they come with, mine look like QA1s...

Everyone keeps talking about the Panhard being adequate to center the rear axle. The stock shocks are adequate for getting to the supermarket as well. The bigger problem is the difference in roll center between left and right corners with the PHB. It's exactly the same with the Watts.

Lonnies Performance

iTrader: (16)

To clear up some confuision & misinformation, here is fact.

The Watts link usefulness has nothing to do with HP, lowering or anything other than pure handling.

It not only locates the rear side to side (as a panhard does), but it also effects the roll center, allowing 6 adjustable roll center settings to tailor your handling. They do make a difference & you may have to try different shock & swaybar settings to get the best results.

FYI, I do not sell these, but bought one for my own daily driver & have been using it for a year with no noises, rattles or issues. I too questioned my spending $650 for one of these.

It has greatly helped the handling & solved the unstable rear "side weight transfer" feeling that was always there when the car was on the edge. It also now handles the same in both left & right turns, where the panhard had distinct different characteristics.

If you push the car hard in turns, you will notice the difference. If you primarily cruise around, still run stock shocks etc, you probably will not appreciate the benefits.

Personally I would buy another one in a heartbeat, after seeing how much it helped my car. It did things that a numerous different springs, shocks & swaybars couldn't cure.

tillery

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for a lot better explaination. My mind and mouth dont communicate as well as I would like.

Big_Bird_WS6

iTrader: (7)

sounds like a Wedding crashers Quote.

"Dont draw attention to yourself in a negative way. Draw attention, but in a Positive way." lol love that movie

_____________________

back on track watts is the ****. i finally got in on my car withmy 9" form MWC

SIK02SS

iTrader: (11)

no one gets full potential out of headers every time they drive the car either..nor do spark plug wires you buy from GM vs. autozone cheap + lifetime warranty.

Black02SLPSS

iTrader: (5)

"Please dont quote the rules to me, I know them."

02Z28LS1

iTrader: (2)

thank you! someone that understands! ignorance is not the same as stupidity. ignorance just means that you are not aware of the facts (or at the very least, not displaying that knowledge). stupidity just means you're a dumbass!

and EchoMirage, i certainly never intended to imply that you were stupid.

geez, calm down....no one's acting hostile towards you (at least i'm not), so there's no real reason for you to be so hostile about it in return.

no one's saying that there aren't other opinions...in fact, that's actually the whole point i was trying to make, as it pertains to your original statement. the main problem with the opinion you gave is that it doesn't actually answer the question that the OP asked. he didn't ask for opinions on whether or not the price is worth it. he never even mentioned price in any way, shape or form. and even if he did, the answer to that question is highly subjective, and there is no overall "right" answer.

he asked whether or not this solution to his problem would still be comfortable on the street. and the 100% non-subjective answer to his question is yes, assuming that it's properly set up.

i'm not being led by anyone. Sam didn't seek me out, telling me i need a watts link on my car. he's not pushing me to hurry up and buy one. i made the decision entirely on my own, based on his results (in the area of performance) and the reports of others who have installed one on their cars (regarding how much nicer they are in daily driving).

although i've made my share of mistakes in the past regarding choice of components, i like to do what's proven to work for a particular problem...i just don't have the time & resources (or quite frankly, the desire) to go out there and test & prove all the options for myself. Sam Strano is one of the people that has lots of experience with the watts link, and has proven that it works...and it just so happens that he also sells them, and he helps his customers when they buy stuff from him. he's not some messiah, he's just a really cool guy that cares enough about his customers to share his experience. on top of that, he makes his recommendations on what parts to buy based on what will benefit his customer the most, which is not always what will make him the most cash. those are just a couple of reasons a lot of people hold him in such high regard.

again with the price....you're still talking about things that the OP didn't even ask about. he didn't ask about the price. he didn't ask whether or not daily driving would push it to its full potential.

and in regards to the tires breaking loose first, you seem to only be looking at it from the perspective of someone going around the skidpad at the highest speed possible. while it is true that the tires will be the first thing to give in that scenario, that's not the only scenario where a watts link improves the handling of the car.

a watts link helps to get rid of the rear end "squirm" that tends to plague vehicles using a PHR. in addition, as Lonnies Performance stated, it also changes the roll center. both of these help to completely change the way the car feels & responds, in all types of driving...not only in racing applications, but in daily driving as well.

i know that anyone who has ever taken a turn even remotely hard in a 4th gen f-body with a PHR (stock or otherwise), especially over any kind of bumps, knows exactly what "rear-end squirm" feels like. that squirm is caused by the body of the car moving from side to side more than the rear axle does. i have a UMI rod/rod PHR right now (the watts link wasn't available when i bought it), and i still feel that squirmy feeling almost every time i drive the car, and i hate it....i won't deny that it is a lot better now with the rod/rod PHR than it was with the stock PHR, but it's still there. and i want it gone. completely. a watts link is currently the cheapest way to accomplish that. in all honesty, i'd love to ditch the solid axle entirely for a really good IRS setup in my car, but the cost & complexity of it (as well as the downtime on the car to convert it) is far too much for me at this point in time since this is my daily driver....but it would be ignorant of me to say that IRS is overkill based on cost alone.

there's a reason watts links were put in lots of cars with solid rear axles straight from the factory.....just as there is a reason IRS was put in many cars straight from the factory. a Crown Vic is not exactly the first car most people think of when talking about performance cars.....and yet, they come from the factory with a watts link. why? because they're more comfortable than a PHR setup, and cheaper than IRS at the same time. it's just coincedence that a good watts link will also outperform a PHR setup when pushed to the absolute edge.

i guarantee you GM did not make the decision to go with a PHR lightly. they didn't put the PHR in these cars because it performs better, but because it's simpler, lighter and less expensive than a watts link or an IRS setup, and because a good PHR setup would satisfy the majority of the car's performance-minded demographic: people who drag race.

if you can live with that squirm, then congrats...you just saved $650. personally, i'm not willing to compromise in that aspect, so i'll be spending the $650 when it's available to me to do so.

now you're finally answering the question that was asked. halle-freakin-lujah! why didn't you just say that to start off with?

duh

iTrader: (16)

I'm sorry to nit-pick, but I couldn't disagree more with this statement.... I've personally seen 3rd and 4th gen T-Top cars that leak specifically from not having these. The SFC's tie the front and rear of the car together for a reason. Over time the Tq from even a stock or lightly modified car can twist the stamped floor pan and roof of these cars. Now granted it may take some serious pounding to do, but regardless it happens. Not only will it protect or investment of hard earned money and time, it does wonders for traction. We put them on the old 92 race car and ended up blowing up something completely other than what we predicted (trans, instead of the 10 bolt)!!! The car actually hooked up and launched like a whole new animal. So much so infact that the little 700R4 could no longer take the abuse. Either way......back to the original issue at hand....

The IRS isn't as costly as everyone seems to think.....I've seem complete (disk to disk with control arms) C4 rearends going for $1000-$1200. Then all you have to do is talk with Zues Perf. (I'm 99% they're a sponsor here) and get the templates for the brackets that need to be added. Spend another $300 and get a driveshaft and for about the same price as a 9" you'll have you're perfect corner carver. If you do it right you can probably get some adjustable links made up for a nominal cost and then you have almost infinite adjustability! This is just my opinion, but then again I'm more of a straight line guy....my bike turns more than enough for me!

JD_AMG

Sorry but Im calling BS on this one. Considering the fact that these cars are known to have saggy doors over time which throws off the alignment of the windows (and the fact that how the windows themselves are aligned in the doors is a joke), and that the weather stripping isnt the highest quality stuff.
+ 4th gen are are much stiffer than 3rd gens.
SFC's certainly are not a "bad" thing, but if you want a "fix" for the sloppy feeling and rattly ride these cars have stock you need good shocks, because it is caused by the stock decarbons, not chassis flex.

Once all the fabrication is said and done (which won't be cheap) consider the alignment specs, getting the right shocks and spring rates (I don't see a stock C4 leaf spring being the right rate for an fbody) and then getting all the bugs and kinks worked out... As much as I would love to do this (and I would) it would be one hell of a hassle.

duh

iTrader: (16)

When the T-tops will not lock in because two corners are higher than the roof line because the car has been twisted (alot like a twisted driveshaft)...I think that qualifies as chassis twist. I've never seen a car with SFC's do that. As for the IRS talk with Zues, they did it a few years ago on the owner's car....sits real nice and I'm sure it corners like an SOB. Weather you believe what I've seen is not what is being discussed....Kinda like calling someone a liar to their face....can be considered offensive, especially when you don't know that person.

Ironhead

Off topic but on the money.

I've had stock shocks with no SFCs. Sloppy and rattly.
I've had stock shocks with SFCs. Still sloppy but no rattles.
I've had quality shocks with SFCs. Not sloppy, no rattles.
I've had quality shocks with no SFCs (cut them off the car). Still not sloppy, still no rattles.

111K miles on my car (bought it new). ~60 1/4 mile passes. Closing in on 600 autocross runs.

Is the car as stiff without the SFCs? Well...no, but that doesn't make them necessary.

duh

iTrader: (16)

FWIW....just found a complete rearend out of a c4....on ebay with 18 hours left...no bids and sitting at $400 in Louisville, KY.
And another in Lake Villa, IL for $500 with 5 days left.....

That sounds like the start of a handling car to me.....