bossho

Looking at picking up a set of these - $1700 for full set all 4 corners coilovers for road racing (not dragracing) does anyone have any knowledge of these? any feedback.

I was originally looking at bilsteins & stock or strano springs or koni s'a with stock or strano springs - how do you think these would compare for use on my 98 T/A?

http://www.unbalancedengineering.com/Camaro/Bilstein/

99Bluz28

iTrader: (35)

I don't have them, but make sure you give them as much honest information as possible to get the valving and spring rates that works best for where you drive, especially if it's a DD to.
If you do that you should be very happy with it, otherwise I'd say go with your other options.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

I have them and they are fantastic shocks. Had them on the race car for almost 4 seasons without an issue.

They are rebuildable.

Jason will ask you a ton of questions. Like said above, be honest and say "I don't know" if you don't.

Tell him Mitch from LAW Motorsports sent you.

bossho

Mitch - thanks for the valuable feedback - very much appreciated - would you consider these daily driver friendly? I am not into drag racing only road racing. How would you compare this to a Koni or Bilstein HD shocks with Strano or shock springs setup?

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Don't be confused ... these are not off-the-shelf shocks.

You need to be armed with application, venue, corner weights, spring rates, sway bar sizes, ride height, etc. when you call Jason and discuss.

He then will work with Bilstein to design a valving specific for your application. No compromises.

And its been a while so the prices may have evolved, but if you don't like or outgrow the current valving, send them back and for $50/pair, they will be revalved.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Koni's and my springs... $1249 as a package. Lifetime warranty on the shocks, damping adjustment on the shocks. I'm not going to say the Bilstein's are bad--they aren't. But you have to understand they are very different. No adjustment there, and no lifetime warranty so I can't agree with the no-compromise statement--there are compromises with everything in life.

I sell some pretty high dollar shocks for various cars. The reason you don't see my selling that stuff for F-bodies is I haven't found the need. I am a Ohlins dealer, I can sell Moton and am an AST dealer as well as any of the high-end Koni race shocks like the 28-series.

Bottom lining it for you. Buying a custom build set of shocks that you can't do anything with is like buying a mail-order tune for your car based on the things you tell the guy on the phone. Having Koni's is like having HPTuners or LS1Edit at your disposal any time you want or need to make a change. And then having the product backed with a lifetime warranty (and one that is honored and supported).

I race on Koni's, not on the Bilstein stuff. You can look at my website and see a video from early in the year of my Camaro on a racetrack, on Koni's (and the car is fast). I just won another National Championship, on Koni SA's in my new car---and I took some fancy-dancy shocks off the car because I preferred the Koni's (it was faster) and beat at least 4 others with shocks that cost 3 times as much. I liked those shocks, but they were fragile and a broken shock isn't as fast or stable as a good Koni. Now, I will say that Bilstien's are quite durable in terms of not breaking.

I'm biased, sure. So is UB if you call them and ask. Which is what I'd recommend you do, call me and call them and ask some questions and see what you think.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

From what I've seen and experienced in a road racing environment, Koni's last about a season ... about 30 races. Then it's another $1200.

pewter2002

iTrader: (4)

Are Konis used for racing warranteed for life? If so, that's not too bad, just an inconvenience. What is the warranty on springs these days - Eibach, BMR, Strano etc? If used for racing, what is the warranty on springs vs DD?

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

First, you and I both know it's not $1200 for a set of Koni's.

Second, I seem to remember you for years telling folks how regular old off the shelf Bilstein HD's were great and there was no need for Koni's (but there is for full blown race shocks, on a street car?). If you do something dumb like run really high spring rates and/or run the car too low you can fail a Koni (and anything else).

About 3 years ago I decided to just go over my car, took my Koni's off (which weren't new when I put them on 2001 Z28 in September in 2000 as we had them on another car prior), and they worked perfectly. So I sold them--to one of my best friends. That was after a few National Championships and 45k street miles. If you want to spin in that not every Koni ever build is impervious to any failure, you can. But context matters.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

I think you'd be hard pressed to find any part known to be used to race on to have such a warranty. On the other hand if you don't run some insane spring rate, and don't slam the car--and don't modify the shock who's to say you were racing on them?

I give a 1-year on the springs, and so far had trouble with 2 (2 springs out of many, many hundreds). Eibach has a "million mile warranty" but we know that's pretty much lip service. BMR, I have no idea what they claim or will do. Probably since I said 1 year, they'll say forever.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

You are 100% correct. Context does indeed matter.

Because I still stand by the fact that Bilstien HDs are a fantastic shock for a street car. Good value, good performance and very durable.

Note I said street car ... not a race car ... a street driven car that will rarely if ever see a track. This is the kind of person who just doesn't need nor will he/she ever adjust or tune a shock.

You keep forgetting that little nugget time and time and time and time again. You are a young man, Sam. You shouldn't be having these kinds of mental issues.

As for the pricing ... I thought he was comparing DAs, not SAs. I am an old man ... my excuse is valid.

I installed UEs front Bilstiens in late 06 along with set #1 of rear Koni SAs. I'm currently on set #2 and they are dead.

Remember, I have to, by rule, run stock sway bars (32/19 or 21 track dependent). So I have to use stiffer spring rates (bounce between #200 and #225 linear depending on the track) and lower air pressures (22 cold on Toyo RA1s)

The rear rate is not far off of Strano Super Spring rates.

But my front Bilstiens from UE have seen rates as high as #900 and now #700. Not an issue at all in 4 years. I had the shocks dynoed last winter and they hadn't fallen off hardly at all ... not enough to warrant a rebuild, any way.

JD_AMG

I think its much less about the fact they are adjustable as it is the fact they have more dampening than a standard Bilstien does.
Regardless if you visit more than one track, and drive on the street you may not always be running the same settings.

If I remember correctly you dont run rear bump stops do you?
What settings do you use with the rear konis?
And if you have so much trouble with them they why run them?

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Good points ...

I have NEVER argued that a $300 Koni is better than a $125 Bilstein. I do believe that for typical street use, there isn't $175 difference, though.

I run rear Konis because of their adjustability.

I race on tracks that are glass smooth and others that are like washboards. Some are mostly long sweepers and others that are tight hair-pins.

No bump stops and a a zip tie around the shock shaft shows I have travel remaining. I am limited on ride height, by rule, so I run a 12" free length rear spring.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

To each his own. I have many, many customers who've had both Bilstein and Koni and prefer the Koni. I guess if you had Koni's and liked them down near full soft front and rear then Bilstein's would make one just as happy--but most folks given the ability to run firmer, opt to do just that. And that is what it comes down to in the end, the ability to not settle. If you are ok with that, then fine. I sell Bilstein too, doesn't much matter to me.

I don't sell race Bilstein's and if that's what you want then I'd suggest you call the guys @ Unbalanced Engineering.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

I don't forget much Mitch.......

225 spring are only 50% stiffer than what I like to run. Is that not far off? I wonder if you were faced with a 50% increase on any other thing in your life other than your bank account if you'd think that's a little bit. I don't know what failed in your rear Koni's since you don't say. I know that running them without rear bumpstops is asking for trouble. They aren't designed that way, and we both know from Kevin Glaser's car you will break them. And ironically enough it's because even with your 225's you can't keep the car from compressing down to that level at some point. I'd hope you woudln't blame Koni for that if there are no bumpstops on the car.

As for the DA thing on the pricing.... Well, ok. But, it was pretty clear in the original post... Maybe you just missed it. But it's that sort of detail that's important.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Something we agree on ... to each his own.

I prefer the spring to do the work and let the shock slow or speed up the movement.

My reasoning? Springs don't wear out ... shocks do. Springs are $40 each ... shocks $350 each. That's a consumer no-brainer.


Ah ... quick double-post.

I know you don't typically, but I gave you benefit of the doubt. I see now it was a choice. OK ... be selective ...

50% increase (out of context) sound ridiculous, especially when your ludicrous example takes it to the far end of the spectrum. But, I've always complimented your marketing skills.

This %50% increase is what ... #50s in rate? That's a pretty small change relatively speaking.

By dead, I mean they show a decreasing trend on the shock dyno in their ability to dampen. I don't know what broke ... just they don't work like they did when I installed them 18 months a go. I coil bind the spring before the shock bottoms out.

Do I blame Koni? Nope and never have posted I did. But I also have enough inegrity to not defraud their warranty department or advertise about it in the internet. You should probably go back and edit that post. BMR will use it against you. Its all in the details, right?

Will I buy another pair? Probably ...

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

You're too funny Mitch.

Shocks do indeed control rate... and by varying the damping (you know like what you were crowing about being able to do via a rebuild/revalve on the race Bilstein's) you can greatly change how the car acts and reacts. How fast it generates roll and pitch, how fast one reacts vs. the other, how quickly each end takes a set, and how the car deals with bumps. None of those things are important? I can't imagine why you are seeing more and more serious performance cars coming with *gasp* adjustable shocks from the factory. They must be idiots like me.

Springs do wear out, and if that's your reasoning then it explains an awful lot. You can't replace one with the other, they do different jobs. You might opt to do what I do and run a softer wheel rate to enhance mechanical grip, and use the damper to make the care transition the way you want. Or you can run a lot more spring, make the car more prone to skating to get decent response on turn it. Your choice. I know why you run the rates you do in front, because you can't run a 35mm front bar like I do. I get it.

Way to ignore the points made btw... I mean after claiming your rear rates aren't that different, and my pointing out they are big time different---it's crickets. You don't read the first post clearing saying SA's and then base the Koni pricing claims on DA's. You say it's great how you can valve the Bilstein race stuff to do what you want, but then ignore you can change the damping in the Koni's to do what you want right on the car without shipping them off of spending money on the shock to do so.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Sigh ... your posts are 3 minutes apart.

pewter2002

iTrader: (4)

I don't race my car but enjoy the feel of a powerful, rear engined car that handles well- who doesn't? I upgraded my stock SS susp with bilstein/SLP setup for a MARKED improvement in handling on the street. I was talked out of adjustable shocks (easily, due to price!) due to how and where I drive. Custom valving was an option- OK, I want X pounds more rebound, or X pounds more compression for X spring- what if it was too much or not enough for me? Well, I am upgrading AGAIN because my present setup left too much performance -rebound etc- on the table. Konis are expensive but I can custom valve them to MY requirements without down time or removing them. The warranty is excellent too. These are not for everybody for sure, maybe if I had the expertise or direction from a road racer or shop I could have achieved the same results? After driving with my Bilstein/SLP setup for six years (and saving some up some more $$), I felt I wanted to pursue more performance with the ability to sharpen up the vehicle's feel, if required. My car was handling fine otherwise and I could have left it as is, but I wanted more and I cane tune it somewhat. Just my .02!

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

Sam I am curious, what style of bumpstops do you recommend? Stock style, Stock style poly, Koni, Ground Control?