transsam

iTrader: (5)

So the ol' man got a 2008 Miata a couple years ago and I've had enough. Can I really mod my car to out-handle it, or am I dreaming?
My car is stockish in weight and is in my sig. Unfortunately it is an Automatic with a converter, though the converter is very tight.

Current mods for handling:
QA1 adjustable shocks on all corners (stock springs)
Poly bushings and ends for the sway bars (stock sway bars)
Strut Tower Brace

Mods that could help:
Sub Frame Connectors
Spohn tunnel mount torque arm
Relocated lower control arms


The car is under the knife right now, so name it, and I'll try throwing it at it.
Ideas so far:
Sway Bars, and umm...
Breathe helium for a few hours before the testing.
HELP!!!
What tires?
What else?
Can it be done (within reason)

Don't worry about $$$ (again within reason)

Thanks for any help!

leadfoot4

iTrader: (1)

Just my $0.02 worth.....The Miata is a little roller skate that is what, 900-1000 pounds lighter? A wheel base about 10" shorter? About 6-7" narrower?

As much as we enjoy our beloved F-Bods, they just aren't going to outhandle a Miata. The F-Bod can, with proper modifications, be made to handle well and brake well, and on the street or a LONG road course, outrun a Miata. But in most instances, it's comparing apples to oranges.

99FormulaM6r

iTrader: (2)

Some of the things you have listed (besides sways and tires) aren't helping (or won't help) your handling. For instance:

-QA1's aren't great shocks for handling.
-Tunnel mounted torque arm can cause wheel hop upon braking
-Relocating your lower control arms can cause under-steer.
-STB's and SFC's are debatable whether they really help a car handle better if that car is set up with proper shocks

Generally, a common good setup are Koni 4/4 (or 4/3) shocks, Strano or BMR springs, and a nice balanced set of sway bars (35/22 or 35/21). Sam Strano is a suspension expert on here that runs his own business, and he's a sponsor. Check out www.stranoparts.com and give him a call. He's more than happy to help customers out, and it's definitely something you should do. He takes what you tell him about the car and what you want from the car and helps you decide what to get, and he doesn't push anything on you. He's actually even talked me out of buying his springs based on the roads around where I live, lol

Anyways, I would suggest the setup I mentioned above (the Koni/Strano/sways combination) if your budget allows. If you don't want to lower, even stock springs on Koni's will handle much better than stock. Also, getting a set of stainless lines, good pads, good rotors, and some nice fluid for your brakes can really improve the braking performance of your car.

All in all, like someone mentioned, you're probably not going to outhandle a MX-5, but at least there are things out there that can allow you to give them a run for their money

transsam

iTrader: (5)

Damn, he wins this round. I was worried that guys who know their sh*t really well (referencing the two folks above, thanks guys) would come in here and tell me it can't be done. I'll take your suggestions, they seem really good and what the hell with the car down right now. It is fun to be this competitive with the man though. 77 years old and still wants to run me through canyons, and wouldn't have an automatic to save his life.

Thanks guys!

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

I autocross these cars. I can make them handle... if you want help then give me a ring. Comparing to a Miata is hard to do because no matter what your car is bigger and weighs a lot more. Can I make it so you could run away from him on canyon roads? Yep, but then he could mod up and make his car better too. The saving grace is your car has a lot more room for improvement.

Ironhead

Being a (4th gen Camaro) autocrosser and having just bought a new 2010 Miata for my wife, I could probably offer some insight here but then Sam would just make fun of me again for buying a Miata.

The Miata's controls... the steering, clutch, shifter, and brakes.... are just superb IMO with regard to mechanical feedback to the driver. Really just depressingly (in comparison to my car) good. Even moreso when you consider that this little jelly bean only cost us ~4k more than my car did when I bought it 14 years ago. I really enjoy driving the wife's new car.

That said, I won't be giving up my car anytime soon. A properly setup F car is just too much fun to drive. It's also surprisingly (to the uninformed at least) fast through the corners. Fast enough that pushing the limit on the road is just lunacy. IMO easily faster than a stock Miata. But then again, that stock Miata is.. well... stock.

I've found my wife's Miata to be surprisingly prone to understeer. (When's the last time you heard a Camaro guy say that? I guess I've been driving a modded car for too long....) so there's obviously room for improvement in the Miata as well. The Miata is also pretty underpowered in stock form (Really? I need 91 octane for 170 hp / 140 tq?).

Some of things you have on the car now will in no way an improve your handling. Likewise, some of the things on your proposed list will not improve your handling. Talk to Sam. He'll steer you away from parts you don't need. You can make HUGE improvements without spending as much as you may think.

transsam

iTrader: (5)

Excellent guys, thanks. Sam, I'll be giving you a call Monday.

Just a side note on my mod list, the car was originally being built to crack single digits. I guess I kinda needed to say that to not look like a complete idiot!

And Ironhead, you are unquestionably correct. They might not feel as connected, but holy **** they are fun to drive!

Thanks and I'll talk to you Monday Sam.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

I'll be here... Please leave a message if I can't answer the phone and I'll call you back as soon as I can.

JD_AMG

Definitely give him a call, with the right suspension mods you won't believe you are driving the same car as before.
But to reiterate what was said above, your list is not going to really get you anything.
First, the QA1s are horrid, that will be the biggest downfall by far and without replacing those with good dampers you wont get anywhere. Been in a car with QA1s and it was a total joke for handling.
Next spend money elsewhere first before buying SFC's. I just bought 3 point tubular bolt ins (to use for a good lift/jack point) and noticed no difference at all. Then I just had them welded and still, no difference. Im not surprised though as these car are pretty stiff from the factory and you will notice those who don't think so are also on shitty dampers (shocks, either stock or drag style like yours) which leave the car feeling loose, choppy, jarring and all around disconnected. Good shocks fix all of this, and get rid of the "flexing" feeling many confuse for chassis flex.
Heres something to look forward for you, this is Sam driving his Camaro (which is relatively a simple setup, no hacking, cutting, welding or stripping, just proper suspension), he has none of the parts you have listed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDxe1lHIxuE
Yes, thats a Porsche 911 GT3 he passes at the end...
And heres his setup (he has a watts link in the video though which is not listed since the article was made before the vid was taken)
http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...aro/index.html

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

It seems one could also say that good shocks tend to mask chassis flex and unitized body design compromises. The post-SFC benefits I noticed on both my cars (SS ~96k mi., RS ~66k mi.) could not be attributable to poor shocks alone. Can you honestly make an argument against improved chassis rigidity as a benefit. Your suspension is only as good as the chassis it is attached to, no?

Shocks & sways seem to be a better choice before SFCs, but can you really take full advantage of those mods until you stiffen the chassis properly? I chose the foundation to modify first -- the chassis, now new shocks are going on both cars...

I don't know why anyone would buy SFCS for a lift/jack point -- no need for that. How does one add SFCs and not notice a stiffer ride, better launches, and nicer cornering? Even more so if we're talking a Vert.

chance575

Check out this months and last months Grassroots motorsports magazine. They have a 2010 car they are prep ing for racing. So far tires have been the biggest improvement. A coil over suspension with bars didnt improve it as much as some large wheels and good summer only tires

JD_AMG

Other way around. The poor dampening causes that feel of chassis flex, when its really just the shitty mismatched shocks. The chassis is plenty stiff, the stock shocks are causing those vibrations and harshness when hitting bumps because of too much compression and not enough rebound, they simply struggle to control the springs and car so it flops around like a drunk cheerleader. Putting on SFC is just bracing of impact instead of actually fixing the problem and getting rid of the impact in the first place. If your car was being hit with a bat from underneath would you rather just brace the chassis more, or stop hitting it with a bat?

Before I was on konis I probably wouldn't believe the difference they made, and what I *thought* was flex. Get rid of all of it for me.
I completely agree that chassis stiffening is a good thing, and that suspension *should* work better with it. My argument is that SFCs don't stiffen the chassis enough to notice.
This is not uncommon by any means, look at the people with proper dampening who added SFCs...

Instead of lifting at each end lifting at the center for one side without bending anything(since there is no lift point there, they tie in the two lift points). Also easier for jackstands for the same reason.

Can't say anything about a vert, but I certainly noticed no difference and Im not too easy on my car.

JD_AMG

No surprise, tires can be a vast improvement. But the 5th gen has relatively good factory suspension compared to the 4th gen.

joblo1978

iTrader: (14)

If your car runs single digits than why do you care about what his Miata can do in the corners? i mean seriously, your comparing apples to oranges at that point. Is it really worth it to completely convert your car to another purpose to save something?

It's almost the same as guys that like comparing F-bodies to STI's. There car has no more business on a dragstrip than mine does at on off-road rally. Bottom line.

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

Well this is all just very interesting -- thanks for your input. Now I am really wanting to also have the experience of welding SFCs to a car that already have Bilsteins or Konis to test what you are saying. Regardless, I still find it hard to imagine that Bilsteins or Konis would cancel-out the SFC benefits I have noticed: stiffer ride, better launches, and nicer cornering... It has got to be additive.

The only reason I started with STB/SFCs was the belief in making the foundation solid, and then building off that. It looks like I will be in for a real nice treat with the new shocks on both cars...

I should say the SFC differences I noticed were more dramatic on the SS Vert, but still very noticeable on the RS (T-Tops).

With the nice powder-coated SFCs -- I would almost hate to jack on them and mess with the finish, unless I used some rubber bumper on the top of jackstands. I usually use a hockey puck on my hydraulic jack...

Like a drunk cheerleader -- that was pretty funny!

leadfoot4

iTrader: (1)

I installed the STB and SFCs a LONG time ago, back around '98-'99...the Stranos and Konis, a few months ago. Worked for me!

99Bluz28

iTrader: (35)

Talk to Sam.

Koni SA's 4/4, Strano springs, Fays2 watts link, Strano (hollow) swaybars, UMI LCA's w/roto-joints, and good tires (they don't have to be the most expensive).

RevGTO

iTrader: (12)

Proper dampeners or not, I can't believe you noticed no difference. I'll tell you what I notice ... much more impact harshness transmitted to the cabin. Road irregularities are telegraphed much more clearly to the seat of the pants. Other than that, yes, there's less twisting when launching and I feel less flex when on a long sweeper.

Very good posts in this thread by 99FormulaM6r and Ironhead, btw.

99Bluz28

iTrader: (35)

IMO, if your on stock springs I can see the benefit of SFCs not being noticeable, but with stiffer lowering springs the chassis is going to flex more and SFCs will make a difference.

I would also weld them in place to maximize the chassis stiffening benefits.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

On a road course, there are three aspects ... acceleration, stopping and turning.

An F-car can only out perform an MX-5 in one of those areas.

And if you accelerate like a mad man, you still have to slow it down.

You can close the gap significantly by shedding weight (as stated earlier), get the car to stop better and get the car to turn.

In order to shed significant weight, you'll need to get rid of all the "fluff" ... radio, A/C, seats ...

Decent pads and larger rotors, like a C5 upgrade at a minimum ...

And to get it to turn, a decent alignment.

Those are all things you can do to make HUGE gains and not break the bank.

But ...

Any one can tell you what it takes for them to go fast and make a car handle for them. Handling is more about confidence and repeatability than it is about trick parts. That all boils down to you and your ability. So don;t get caught up in the "cookie-cutter" version of handling.

Making power has a tried and true formula and that can be duplicated very easily. Making a car "handle" is much more unique and driver specific.

If Michael Schumacher is driving the Miata and Joe Schmuck is behind the wheel of the F-Car, then no bank account will close the "handling" gap.

So, any fix for the car needs to include the guy driving.