z28bryan

iTrader: (7)

Not only that, but so what if you find someone finally who says they tried both and prefer the Hotchkis bars and specs over Stranos? Just because you found one person, doesn't mean you're going to like it. People have their own preferences of setups. Nothing is always the best part for everyone or everything.

If you're trying to fine tune down to details, then you should be trying it out yourself and drawing your own conclusions. Tuning a car right has a lot more to it than just measuring things on the units of "great, good, bad, etc". If you have such a drive to find the best things, then it's called test and tune. You claim to want open minded facts and details, but you when you're given answers you become very shallow and stubborn if you aren't getting the answer you're looking for. This goes for many posts you've made in the past, not just this one.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

I run the 35/22 setup on both R-comps and good street tires. As the tires become less and less grippy the car is more and more prone to oversteer--which means you want less rear bar on the car, not more. For years I was the only one to offer a combination like 35/22-ish. SLP for a brief period in 2001-2002 had a 35/21 combo (though I had been doing that since the '90's). Most folks sold 32/21 or 32/22 bars. Hotchkis, ST used 35/25 type bars. Now some that did 32/21 have moved to 35/25 types.... But in those case, the rear bar is IMHO too stiff relative to the front bar, promoting oversteer. And one difference is I add front grip with more aggressive alignments, those others don't--so they add more rear bar to take grip away to try and get balance. But the result I don't feel is balanced, it's loose, and it's really loose with more front grip added via alignment, bigger front tires, etc.

The only time I want a "big" rear bar is when the Roll-center is dropped way down and/or the car runs a staggered tire setup. And that's where the adjustable rear bar comes in, you can stiffen it up from the 22mm setting (which is actually a tiny touch stiffer than the standard non-adjustable 22 already).

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

Looking for the best street handling characteristics, as that is where the car is and will live the most, but also occasional Autocross and strip. I really like handling, so I am emphasizing it first before HP, unlike a lot of F-Body owners... It is a fair-weather machine...

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

I can't relate to that at all......

You know my thoughts, I'm a handling based person not a straight line guy--that's what my parts and thinking is based on. At this point, you just need to make a decision on what you think it best--and why. I again, think that the Hotchkis stuff is overpriced, and the rear most especially is oversized. But because it's not a terrible option, I do sell them as well so you don't feel you are being held hostage. Though it seems you still think I am, because I have the nerve to tell you I feel my stuff is better (and that's why I made my stuff in the first place).

z28bryan

iTrader: (7)

So I think your answer whatever you feel works better for you. I'm sure you'd be fine with either. I'd go with the Strano rear bar though because you can get more than stiff enough at the stiffest setting probably for your car at the drag strip.. it's not like you are running big power under your hood or anything. You'll also have a less stiff option with the rear Strano bar.

If you are still interested in nitpicking apart the two bars, you might have to do your own research. And I don't know what else your going to find out except one bar is stiffer than the other which we already know. Sometimes when there are options that work very well.. we tend to leave things at that because most of us have other responsibilities in our lives that make it unrealistic to do all this stuff.

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

I appreciate everyone's inputs so far, but I am still missing something.

Comparing
Hotchkis ~36.5mm Front, 23.8mm Rear adj.
Strano 35mm Front, 22mm Rear adj.

pewter2002 mentioned "the rear bar from Hotchkis is TOO big for the size of front bar -too much oversteer at the limit, not the best balance" -- I believe he was referring to their standard non-adj. rear bar, which I am NOT considering.

From what I can gather, there doesn't seem to be any real negatives with the Hotchkis pairing above, it's a bit stiffer than Strano's.

For those wondering, yes, I keep asking the questions until I have a firm choice in mind, and at this point I am still teetering...

Between the above two sets, Sam must have noticed situations where he did not like the Hotchkis bars -- any examples of them and details would be helpful. This is what I was hoping to hear about, or from others' experience. But again, I am only interested in experience with the pairing above, NOT their standard rear bar.

z28bryan

iTrader: (7)

Did this not help answer your question??

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Jesus Christ----Does this never end?

Here, let me make this easy for you: Run the Hotchkis stuff. Ignore the fact their rear isn't easily compatible with a Watts, or that they cost more, or have more simple endlink design that doesn't give any pre-load adjustment, and uses standard bushings on an angle they aren't happy to be on. And they weigh more too.

I have plenty of background on various bars. If you think I need to tell you every story and every detail of everything I've ever done, I'm sorry--I won't. I can't. And you keep missing one critical point, time and time again. EVERY CAR, CAR OWNER, DRIVING STYLE, SETUP, WHEEL/TIRE COMBINATION, ETC. is different. Each of those things effects something. Overall, I find anything bigger than 22mm rear to be too much on cars setup in way similar to what I do. If you want to run stock rear springs, and a big front bar and stiffer springs, and big rear tires well then yeah, you might want a mongo rear bar to balance the "package" out.

In the end, I don't think you car about my opinion, you want my information. Why do I think this? You have my opinion, based on my testing and information, and you have the reasoning behind my opinion.

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

Yes, that was helpful, but it did not take into account the larger Hotchkis front bar in the equation...

z28bryan

iTrader: (7)

Sounds like it's up to you to figure that one out

You might be able to find someone who's done a direct comparison with everything else exactly the same and have an accurate result from it all.. but I doubt it. You'd have to compare probably a million setups on different tracks.... you see? It's not about good, bad, ok... there's more to it than that If you're going to give everything one single rating like that, then you are thinking with a narrow mind.

Test and tune buddy! Test and tune!

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Let's play his game. Ok, Hotchkis is stiffer.... Good or bad? I think it's a wash.... say you agree (or even if you don't). How do you then defend the fact Hotchkis is heavier?

See, it's very clear to me that you are using their bars as the standard and want me to defend my work, when it's my stuff that is actually used on my cars that tend to be driven more seriously (and most everyone loves the result).

You are asking a question that has no answer. Are you a Philosophy major? If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a noise? Some say yes, some say no. You have to make your own mind up. How do you do that? Test them both. I made up my mind, in lieu of some miracle answer that isn't likely to come falling out of the sky, this is what car setup is often about.

THERE IS NOT PERFECT SETUP ACROSS THE BOARD FOR EVERY SITUATION. You make an educated choice. If you don't like it, you try something else.

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

The more simple endlink design you are referring to is on ALL Hotchkis bars, or just their rear NON-adjustable? Similar question about the Watts not being easily compatible, are you talking about just their NON-adjustable, or both rear bars?

Also, FWIW, this SS runs Michelin Pilot Sports on SLP ZR1 style wheels.

So you are saying ~1.8mm bigger in the Hotchkis rear adjustable is still too much more, in your experience.

I also notice you have never said the bigger front bar has any negatives apart from bushing availability due to a less-common size.

Opinions are stronger when backed up with information, that's what I am after... So yes I do care about your opinion, since you frequently share a LOT of good information with the community!

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

This is the last time I'm posting in this thread.

Change your tires, nothing else--and the car will not handle the same way. I cannot quantify every possible combination. Sorry if you think I can.

Bars are about BALANCE. The front bar is less of an issue to me than the rear bar being too large--even with their front bar. That is my opinion. How many negatives do you want? Make a pro/con chart and plot the information and opinions you have.

I've told you I think I have a better combination. Not good enough. I then said, run the Hotchkis since it seems you want to do that. You don't seem willing to do that. Then you ask about a split setup (maybe two wrongs make a right in your mind?). I tell you that there are a lot of variables. Bryan and I both tell you that if you want to find out you need to test. This is the CM thing all over again.

Either you can trust me and try my stuff, or not. You can trust Hotchkis and try their stuff, or not. You can buy a set of each and try them both, or combinations of both... or not.

I guess I'm just crazy expecting the fact I'm around, do my best to help, have a slew of happy customers, and don't build stuff unless I think I can improve things, to matter.

Yet again, as you did before you want me tell you why you should "pick me" over "them". I'm not asking you to. I really wonder do you do the same thing to Hotchkis? Maybe you do and I just don't see it since they aren't here to go through this fun. Are their answers anywhere near as in depth as mine? How do you decide how what to eat today? Is there a formula? Can't you quantify why you think Subway sounds better than Chinese today? Suspensions aren't all numbers, if they were then you'd need nobody to setup cars, and all drivers would like the very same things. But we don't like the same things, the quicker you understand that, the better.

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

Sam you are a funny guy, bright too.


I have a call into Hotchkis to get the weights, they are checking with engineering. I will update this post when I get them.
Hotchkis
Front weight ~17.3 lbs (bar only)
Rear Adjustable weight ~ 6 lbs (bar only)

How much do yours weigh? Bars & hardware?
Strano
Front weight 15 lbs (bar only) ~17.5 lbs (total)
Rear Adjustable weight? 7 lbs (bar only) ~12 lbs (total)


I am trying to make the educated choice, that's why I am gathering all the data points and info.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

That took you 4 pages to ask? Sheeh.

When I get around to it..... But then you'll ask me if my scale is certified. And then we'll have a debate about that over probably a few ounces.

The front bar in a box, which is 56x21x3" with the hardware in another box inside that's about 8x4x2.5" with some foam packing, and 15 staples in box, is 24.3 pounds. The bar itself is 15 pounds. The hardware including the tube of grease is 2.5 pounds.

I don't have rear bar here packed... I weighed one of the test ones. Bar with endlinks *attached*, 7. Weight of the body brackets: 1. Weight of the mount bushings and axle clamps (which are bigger on this bar than they are for the standard bar Hotchkis uses stock GM which is part of the install issue with a Watts link).... Approximately (can't tell you exactly they are on my car and I'm not taking them off to please you) 4 pounds. Call it a total of around 12 or so. I have more parts, some of which are bigger on the rear bar. The bar itself is most definitely lighter than the H-bar.

Now I'm done.

Element

iTrader: (5)

Why not buy the Strano sways, run them for a bit, and if you don't like them, sell them and buy the Hotchkis bars?

Car parts are a lot like car audio - 50 people might tell you something's good, so you buy it with high expectations, and then find out you don't like it. There's no replacement for actually trying things out yourself.

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

Hotchkis finally got some numbers (measured from an Impala bar which has the same diameter and wall thickness with exception of maybe a couple inches of material since they had no 4th Gen bars in stock to measure. I'm still waiting on hardware weights):

Front weight ~17.3 lbs (bar only)
Rear Adjustable weight ~ 6 lbs (bar only)

Interestingly, the guy I spoke with (Mark) had never heard of StranoParts... Funny, since Sam sells their parts...

z28bryan

iTrader: (7)

Hotchkis makes stuff for lots of different cars. Sam's pretty much a smaller scale vendor. The Hotchkis guy isn't going to know every single small scale vendor who sells their stuff.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

I know John Hotchkis knows of me... Was told the other day by someone who knows both of us that I was "on his radar". I don't buy Hotchkis direct, and even if I did I don't think that every person will know me.

I bet I don't know him either... What detail did you get from them on why their bars are superior? Just curious.

Back on point. My front bar is lighter, the rear bar is lighter. I'd think you have your case closed since you were so worried about weight that we had the famous thread about why the front bars aren't CM and all..... I'll nip this one in the bud too, my rear hardware is heavier because there is more to it since the 22mm Adjustable comes with new body mounts, new axle mounts and bigger adjustable endlinks. Hotchkis uses GM body mounts, a smaller link, and stock axle mounts. The front will be the same, as we both give new links and mounts.

BOBS99SS

iTrader: (2)

Listen to mr.strano he kinda knows a thing or to about this stuff. And when he tells ya something works it does,he has a great rep in this part of the game.take care guys God bless