Suspension/rod end rant + what I'm doing to fix it
12-06-2010, 10:38 PM
#61
OK guys, I've collected all the stuff I'll need for the job and setting aside this Wednesday & Thursday to do the work.
The Prothan bushing install was a learning experiance. The forward bushings were a bitch and on one end, the bushing material bulged out from the bushing end washer. It'll certainly make getting them into the chassis difficult so I trimmed them a bit to be flush with the bushing end washer.
The rear bushings couldn't be eaiser.
The Prothan bushing install was a learning experiance. The forward bushings were a bitch and on one end, the bushing material bulged out from the bushing end washer. It'll certainly make getting them into the chassis difficult so I trimmed them a bit to be flush with the bushing end washer.
The rear bushings couldn't be eaiser.
12-07-2010, 01:30 AM
#62
to make the front bushings go in easier......i cut small grooves in the inside of the bushing .....to eliminate stiction ......air pockets that kept it from bottoming out......retain grease for lubracation.....and did not use that crappy grease it came with......until i did this mod.......that bushing would not even go half way in
12-11-2010, 09:30 PM
#63
OK guys, the job is well under way.
I can now do this job with one hand tied behind my back and a beer in the other hand.
I am absolutely shocked as to how much play was in the rod end joints, even the uppers. This work was very overdue.
'Course, I am having, um, "issues" getting the high mileage original shocks apart. I started a help thread...
I can now do this job with one hand tied behind my back and a beer in the other hand.
I am absolutely shocked as to how much play was in the rod end joints, even the uppers. This work was very overdue.
'Course, I am having, um, "issues" getting the high mileage original shocks apart. I started a help thread...
Last edited by Paul Bell; 12-13-2010 at 07:17 AM.
12-13-2010, 05:32 PM
#65
I was forced to use the car today after having completed only one side. The install of the lower control arm was very tight-and it resisted movement after installed. It seemed to negotiate the bumps and streets of NYC nicely. I'm satisfied the work was worth it. Also surprising was how straight the car rolls without an alignment.
Tomorrow, I'll be under the car again.
Tomorrow, I'll be under the car again.
12-20-2010, 12:03 PM
#66
FINALLY I'm working on the right side. I discovered the sway bar bracket is destroyed. A search here shows it's not all that uncommon and I also found Blain Fab has them reinforced and powdercoated.
I ordered one GM bracket I can get and install tomorrow and I'll swap both of them later to the Blain Fab ones.
I ordered one GM bracket I can get and install tomorrow and I'll swap both of them later to the Blain Fab ones.
12-22-2010, 03:00 PM
#67
The work is DONE.
I got a good alignment this morning. The car rides nice and quietly, smooth and tight. Slightly bouncy but I’m sure it’s the shocks. It handles great.
I'm very happy with the results of all this effort.
There are two noises left in the suspension/chassis. The rod ends on the panhard bar and the nose joint for the torque arm.
I’m asking around for a double adjustable panhard bar with rubber ends.
The torque arm nose has a recently (this past summer) installed roto-joint style end and when I step on the gas, it creeks and when I brake it creeks the other way. I think I’ll need to go to a poly end.
There’s just no reason these suspension components should wear and have so much play and make noise with relatively few miles on them.
I got a good alignment this morning. The car rides nice and quietly, smooth and tight. Slightly bouncy but I’m sure it’s the shocks. It handles great.
I'm very happy with the results of all this effort.
There are two noises left in the suspension/chassis. The rod ends on the panhard bar and the nose joint for the torque arm.
I’m asking around for a double adjustable panhard bar with rubber ends.
The torque arm nose has a recently (this past summer) installed roto-joint style end and when I step on the gas, it creeks and when I brake it creeks the other way. I think I’ll need to go to a poly end.
There’s just no reason these suspension components should wear and have so much play and make noise with relatively few miles on them.
01-17-2011, 03:41 PM
#69
OK guys, I wrapped up the job by installing a shiny new Edelbrock PHR with greaseable poly ends. I had an older one from SJM Manufacturing with rod ends and it was the last suspension component rattling around.
Summary of work/parts installed:
-Stock front lower control arms, additionally welded and powder coated with Prothane bushing kit;
-Global West upper control arms with their Del-alum bushings;
-BMR (source corrected) rear control arms with rubber bushings;
-Edelbrock adjustable PHR with poly ends.
While I was at it, SLP/Bilstein front shocks, new strut plates and strut support bearings, new sway bar endlink bushings and beefier link bolts..
My torque arm has two rod ends at the rear and a roto-joint style joint at the nose. The front joint seems to be a bit loose and moving around a bit but it seems OK now. Maybe in the near future I’ll whack it or something. The two rear joints seem OK, I’ll assume this is due to the very limited side angle they see.
How’s the car ride & handle with all the poly & Del-alum stuff? JUST GREAT! I feel it’s just as tight as when I had all new rod end joints. Very quiet and it handles like a slot car.
I’m very very happy with the results of all the research and work I’ve done.
I would suggest to the aftermarket manufacturers to clearly tell people that rod ends have a limited life when used in daily driver cars that see average roads and weather. The roto style joints are somewhat better in lifespan but also loosen up and rattle.
It’s too bad these companies don’t look into the sealed and/or greaseable rod end joints that are on the market.
Summary of work/parts installed:
-Stock front lower control arms, additionally welded and powder coated with Prothane bushing kit;
-Global West upper control arms with their Del-alum bushings;
-BMR (source corrected) rear control arms with rubber bushings;
-Edelbrock adjustable PHR with poly ends.
While I was at it, SLP/Bilstein front shocks, new strut plates and strut support bearings, new sway bar endlink bushings and beefier link bolts..
My torque arm has two rod ends at the rear and a roto-joint style joint at the nose. The front joint seems to be a bit loose and moving around a bit but it seems OK now. Maybe in the near future I’ll whack it or something. The two rear joints seem OK, I’ll assume this is due to the very limited side angle they see.
How’s the car ride & handle with all the poly & Del-alum stuff? JUST GREAT! I feel it’s just as tight as when I had all new rod end joints. Very quiet and it handles like a slot car.
I’m very very happy with the results of all the research and work I’ve done.
I would suggest to the aftermarket manufacturers to clearly tell people that rod ends have a limited life when used in daily driver cars that see average roads and weather. The roto style joints are somewhat better in lifespan but also loosen up and rattle.
It’s too bad these companies don’t look into the sealed and/or greaseable rod end joints that are on the market.
Last edited by Paul Bell; 01-17-2011 at 03:51 PM.
01-22-2011, 08:16 PM
#72
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seen this many times before. race car stuff on a daily driver. there is a reason why gm put rubber bushings in the car at the factory, they werent just being cheap.
01-23-2011, 06:06 PM
#73
Staging Lane
mr paul bell, i am so happy i read this thread! I am also from NYC, where the streets can be real bad and hard on a suspension. This thread answer a couple of questions i was going to post about heim/sperical rod ends. 1) How bad does rod ends, transfer noise and vibration thru the car (how much ride quality suffer). 2)Longevity, are these rod ends high maintance? (meant for a track car only or can be used for a daily driver). I think i got my answer for both
01-23-2011, 07:57 PM
#74
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ill take a shot at numbers and someone can correct me...
for a DD:
1) yes rod ends transfer noise, pair then with a poly/rubber end and it will help. but over your exhaust you will hear...?
2) ill take a guess try and maintain/tighten them every 10k? maybe they will last 50k before they are too loose and therefore need replacing?
for a DD:
1) yes rod ends transfer noise, pair then with a poly/rubber end and it will help. but over your exhaust you will hear...?
2) ill take a guess try and maintain/tighten them every 10k? maybe they will last 50k before they are too loose and therefore need replacing?
01-23-2011, 08:52 PM
#75
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ill take a shot at numbers and someone can correct me...
for a DD:
1) yes rod ends transfer noise, pair then with a poly/rubber end and it will help. but over your exhaust you will hear...?
2) ill take a guess try and maintain/tighten them every 10k? maybe they will last 50k before they are too loose and therefore need replacing?
for a DD:
1) yes rod ends transfer noise, pair then with a poly/rubber end and it will help. but over your exhaust you will hear...?
2) ill take a guess try and maintain/tighten them every 10k? maybe they will last 50k before they are too loose and therefore need replacing?
01-23-2011, 09:15 PM
#76
CRW, what car do you have? Set up yourself with a sig.
Ahh yes, you understand. The BQE. The FDR. The Cross Bronx. The lower east side. Our streets SUCK.
I didn’t mind more road noise being transmitted to the body of the car. Using rod ends will certainly transfer the most. The wife/GF will NOT like it.
There is no way to adust or tighten up rod ends. There’s no way to lube them. They have no seals keeping water out. Once they wear, they loosen up causing embarrassing rattling. They also squeak, often badly. There is no maintaining or tightening them. When they loosen up, you can only replace them. You’ll need an alignment afterwards. The kinda new roto-joints or del sphere joints last a bit longer-but will also loosen up. They can be adjusted and lubed but the set I tried were rattling after about six weeks. I opted to ditch them rather than fool with them regularly. A good idea on paper but not in real world usage. This was a disappointment.
If you have a daily driver and drive in good and bad weather, rod ends will not last very long. The ones I removed rattled around in their housings when I shook them.
Poly joints may bind and crack. Better than rod ends for the street, but not optimum. Del-alum bushings are the best of all worlds for automotive suspensions.
For these (fourth gen F-Body) the only place Del-alum bushings can go are the front upper control arms. Global West has them for stock arms or in their very nice tubular arms. Aftermarket front lower arms all have at least one rod end. I went with the least of the evils, stock lower arms with Prothane poly joints-which were a pain in the *** to install.
In the rear, I went with BMR’s lower arms with rubber bushings and Edelbrock’s PHR with poly ends.
Ahh yes, you understand. The BQE. The FDR. The Cross Bronx. The lower east side. Our streets SUCK.
I didn’t mind more road noise being transmitted to the body of the car. Using rod ends will certainly transfer the most. The wife/GF will NOT like it.
There is no way to adust or tighten up rod ends. There’s no way to lube them. They have no seals keeping water out. Once they wear, they loosen up causing embarrassing rattling. They also squeak, often badly. There is no maintaining or tightening them. When they loosen up, you can only replace them. You’ll need an alignment afterwards. The kinda new roto-joints or del sphere joints last a bit longer-but will also loosen up. They can be adjusted and lubed but the set I tried were rattling after about six weeks. I opted to ditch them rather than fool with them regularly. A good idea on paper but not in real world usage. This was a disappointment.
If you have a daily driver and drive in good and bad weather, rod ends will not last very long. The ones I removed rattled around in their housings when I shook them.
Poly joints may bind and crack. Better than rod ends for the street, but not optimum. Del-alum bushings are the best of all worlds for automotive suspensions.
For these (fourth gen F-Body) the only place Del-alum bushings can go are the front upper control arms. Global West has them for stock arms or in their very nice tubular arms. Aftermarket front lower arms all have at least one rod end. I went with the least of the evils, stock lower arms with Prothane poly joints-which were a pain in the *** to install.
In the rear, I went with BMR’s lower arms with rubber bushings and Edelbrock’s PHR with poly ends.
01-24-2011, 05:52 PM
#77
Staging Lane
mr bell, I have a metalic green 30th anniservary 97 rs camaro. That i am trying to fix up. Yes the belt pkwy, the gowanus and interboro can be a adventure in driving also. I was thinking about upgrading the suspension, but will save up for a moser 12 bolt rearend.
01-25-2011, 03:07 PM
#79
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my take on it is this.... if the car is not a track car knocking down sub 1.4 60's, or a track car with autox/road racing tires on it, there is no reason to put rod ended stuff on there. it will not get you to work any faster everyday. leave the rubber stuff on the car, and keep yourself from hating your piece of crap rattling clanking car.
I have the Delrin type on the front lower control arms , stock up top. Rod ends on the rears. Poly on the trans and motor mounts.