Paul Bell

iTrader: (9)

Some of you guys here know, if there’s a top-shelf thing for these cars (fourth gen F-Body), I get it. If I can’t afford it, I don’t settle for second best, I wait until I have the money.

I have tubular upper & lower front control arms and K-Frame, brand doesn’t matter as they’re all pretty much the same. These control arms have the rod ends-the best & most expensive after market setup for these cars. Ditto on the rear arms.

My car is a daily driver-here in NYC. These rod ends do not last. In no time they’re rattling and squeaking from rust. It’s loud & embarrassing and not a good ride. When new, wow, they’re great. There’s no way to lubricate them and no seals to keep water out.

After having this same problem on my rear control arms with rod ends, I tried a set of the new roto-joint/del-sphere style ends. UMI, and Spohn have it. After about a months driving, they’re rattling too. I know I can adjust them but a few weeks of driving? Yes, I greased them. This is getting old and I'm getting sick of it. Work on the car-which ain't easy as I'm getting old myself, spend good money on "the best" parts, and in no time, it sounds like a clunker

After some research, I’ve discovered that poly joints have their own issues. Many here on LS1tech have great things to say about 1LE component as they have stiffer and more solid bushings. I’ve also discovered that Global West’s Del-a-lum bushings are very very good-better than poly. They have upper arms with them as these arms only move in one axis. The lower (front) arms are a different story, the forward bushing rotates up & down (normal to most control arms) but the rear bushing pivots sideways along it’s centerline. I hate GM for doing it like this. I’ve been advised (by one of the several companys that makes the tubular stuff) that the lowers have binding and stress issues with poly bushings-and need to have rod end joints. Certainly because of the opposing bushing setup. Not an option for me, I need to eliminate rod ends from my car’s suspension.

I’ve decided to go with the Global West upper arms and a return back to stock lower arms with the Prothane poly kit. Global West has a lower bushing kit but it’s way too expensive for me at this time and I need to do this job now-it’s that bad.

What would be the best thing is if GM made the lower control arms with the bushing on the same rotating axis-like a lower control arm on say a 71 Chevelle. Perhaps somebody (hello UMI?) Would consider making a K-Frame and lower control arm set like this-instead of keeping one bushing horizontal and the other vertical. OR tubular LCA’s that’ll accept stock-style bushings eliminating the need to use rod ends.

I’m gathering all the parts now, good used lower front control arms, Global West uppers, SLP/Bilstein shocks, the Prothane bushing kit and oh yeah, new sway bar link bolts, I bent them. Damn NYC streets...

I’ll update and post some pics as I do everything.

MeentSS02

iTrader: (11)

Your experience has been the same as mine...it doesn't seem to matter what I use for the rear lower control arms, but they all end up making too much noise. Rod ends, roto-joints, del-sphere...they start out quiet, but I HATE how they sound over rough pavement. Rough parking lots are the worst.

In the end, I went back to BMR lower control arms out back using their rubber ends (yes, they offer rubber ends in their control arms). They don't articulate the best, and they aren't the most solid, but in the end, it gives me the least amount of noise, and the ride is nice.

I guess I'm more picky than most...others say they can't hear anything from their rod ends or roto joints...that just has not been my experience. My experience has also kept me from touching the front arms.

99FormulaM6r

iTrader: (2)

I'm not a suspension expert, especially not on aftermarket bushings, but it seems that solid rubber bushings should allow for as much articulation in your suspension as needed.

sjsingle1

iTrader: (1)

seems the del spheres get loose after a while......and need to be tightend.....the price ya pay i guess

Paul Bell

iTrader: (9)

I knew there was something else I didn't like about the Global West lower control arm bushing set. It's all rod end ball joints-they'll end up rattling like rod end joints.

The Global West LCA set (and below) the Prothane poly set:

Paul Bell

iTrader: (9)

For the rear control arms (after exhaustive research) I've determined the following:

-Rod end joints will in time loosen up, rattle and probably squeak from rust if you got them wet.

-"Roto" style joints will also loosen up and rattle. Pull the arms to adjust them?

-Poly ended arms will bind. Some suggest one end be a rod end. Global West states when using poly ends, the panhard bar can't be used. Really.

My conclusion: Many here have raved about the 1LE rear LCA's. I'm gonna find a pair used, box & weld them myself and shove in FB397 bushings from Pep Boys OR Auto Zone. They look to be 12 bucks a pair. These are equal to Moog K6178 which are equal to the GM 1LE bushings.

Paul Bell

iTrader: (9)

Here's a shot of the Global West upper arms with their del-a-lum bushings. I like how the zerk fittings are 90 degree versions and face outwards.

Paul Bell

iTrader: (9)

Meent, which BMR arms are available with rubber bushings? I just want to have all the options on my plate.

99FormulaM6r

iTrader: (2)

AFAIK, the only difference between 1lE LCA's and the stock LCA's are the bushings, nothing more. You're better off taking your stock LCA's, replacing the bushings, and then box & weld them yourself and save your money.

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

This is your problem, plain and simple. Not trying to give you **** here, but I feel you have bought into the companies marketing and not using your own head to decide what you buy. I started buying into the whole poly is better deal. Every poly piece I have put on my car has made it ride worse. Slightly worse each time as each piece is added. It didn't take me long at all to figure out I did NOT want a race car. All my front suspension will stay stock bc of this, and the rear will only have control arms and a full length aftermarket torque arm with a poly bushing.

Beaflag VonRathburg

iTrader: (176)

I recently built a set of LCAs and APHR with aluminum hex tubing and del spheres. My car hasn't run in forever, but my conclusions from messing with them are...

I live a block from the beach in Florida the land of humidity and salt air. These have been sitting uncovered in my garage for near 3-4 or more months and haven't the slightest hint of rust on them. I have not gotten them wet, but sitting in my garage should be about the same thing. They say on the product info that you don't have to grease them. They say the only reason they have the fittings is to reduce the amount of calls they receive from people asking that question.

If they are loosening over time I think you could simply add some loctite esque material to them or cover them in a clear enamel except for the rotational axis. I think that'd pretty much solve everything.

Paul Bell

iTrader: (9)

99, you are correct, the rear LCA's are the same except for the bushings. My original arms are long gone so I'm on the hunt for another pair to box up and add new 1LE bushings.

01, you are correct, perhaps I was taken by advertising hype. I won't mind a little hard ride. With these plans, the only poly stull I'll have is in the front LCA's. The uppers will have the del-a-lums.

Beaflag, I know I can adjust the rotojoints but by my experiance with them, they would need it every 6-8 weeks. Some guy in another thread said to really adjust them, they need to come off the car. I'm tired of having to dissassemble my ride all the time.

Thanks for your input guys, there'll be more on this.

pewter2002

iTrader: (4)

I just received my Roto/Poly LCAs, and am getting close to putting them on. Most guys seemed to think this was a good alternative to rod ends. I am more than a little disappointed in your long term assessment! Well, I hope I'm not going to be posting similar results in 6, 12 whatever months!

Element

iTrader: (5)

My rod ends lasted for years, driving through WV and KS winters.

The problem with buying things based on what "internet people" say is that there's a mindset of, "I have to buy ____ because I have a performance car, and the part is available, so it must be better in all aspects than the stock part." Instead of making a plan of what needs to be done, people use "You must have this..." threads to determine what's going on their car.

Good example of this - why did you buy new upper control arms? Because it was a new part to put on the car, or because there was an actual realistic performance advantage to be gained from it? Tubular upper control arms are no lighter than the stock pieces, use the same type of ball joint, and you can pick up replacement bushings for them. Aside from being prettier and another part to add to the mod list, they don't do anything.

Just because something's "the best of the aftermarket" doesn't mean you're going to enjoy having it on your car in place of the OEM part it replaced. Best thing to do is to keep a realistic outlook on what you're going to do with the car, and when you look at new parts, make a list of what benefits they'll provide, against the trade-offs you're going to have to deal with, and whether the benefits are actually going to make any difference based on how you drive the car/what you use it for.

MeentSS02

iTrader: (11)

From what I remember them telling me, any of their arms that you can get with poly ends you can get with rubber instead. The bushings they use, whether poly or rubber, fit in the same size hole, so they are interchangable.

Mine are currently in a set of their boxed LCAs - rubber in both ends. I have a sizable step at the end of my driveway that I have to take at a pretty good angle...that transition with the rubber ends isn't as smooth as it was with control arms that had del-sphere ends on both sides, but I'm still able to make that step down one wheel at a time with minimal binding. On the street, I don't even notice they are back there except for a little more compliance over bumps (which is a welcome thing to me).

Paul Bell

iTrader: (9)

I’m glad your rod ends lasted as long as they have. I (and it appears most here) have not been as fortunate.

When I bought all this stuff with rod ends, my goal was to get the tightest suspension components with the least amount of deflection. I was aware I would also get a hard ride-I like it like that. I did not just run out to buy the biggest bestest because it’s on the market. What I didn’t expect or anticipate was the very short life span of the components and their detrimental effects on using the car regularly. When this stuff was new, the handling was amazing and I was happy I achieved my goal. It’s what I expected and wanted.

I consider the stock upper control arms on these cars to be pretty flimsy stampings with little reinforcement. It’s bushings are made for comfort and silence and have an expected amount of deflection. I do not have a set of stock upper arms laying around and the GW del-a-lum arms looked like a good solution to eliminating rod ends from my car while maintaining a minimum of bushing deflection.

The stock lower arms on the other hand are pretty beefy. Boxed, reinforced, welded, I’d say they might be stronger than the tubular LCA’s on the market. I have a pair I just bought in the marketplace. I’m gonna clean them up, perhaps do a little extra welding in one area I think can use it, paint them (maybe even powder coat them?) and install Moog HD ball joints and the Prothane bushing set.

The purpose of all this is to eliminate rod ends yet have the front suspension perform as close to having rod ends as possible. I’ve started this thread to hear what others think or have done to possibly get more ideas. So far so good!

Element

iTrader: (5)

Well, the thing you have to do is to narrow down why your rod-ends are going so quickly, while other people get a good bit of use out of them. I didn't mean my statement to be a "Mine's better", but most people get at least decent life out of rod ends before they start clunking. Have you tried a different brand of rod end? Since the ball itself is constantly moving, it shouldn't be getting any rust deposits at all on it, and most (as far as I know) are plated, which should give very good protection against rust. My first thought would be that you simply had shitty rod ends. I don't know if you'd be willing to switch to a different brand rod end, but that would be one way to eliminate a variable.

I'm actually going the other way around with my control arms - keeping the stock uppers and replacing the bushings and ball joints (aftermarket upper control arms are expensive, especially when you figure in the cost of new ball joints, and really don't look any stronger than the stockers, being as they only move in one axis and don't see any real bind or torsional force). I'm getting rid of the lowers because the stock ones are heavy, and lower front control arm poly bushings are known to bind and commit suicide rather quickly. If you're thinking about the Prothane poly bushings for the front control arms, you might search around a bit before putting them in.

Without a true Heim-style joint, I don't think any non-rotating bushing comes close to the articulation one gets with a ball joint. Poly and rubber will both bind and deflect, poly to a lesser extent in most cases, but you've still got a lot more friction area and, in essence, a "soft mount" that's going to allow unwanted movement. Polys are usually an improvement, but honestly based on what you've said, it might be best to just switch to 1LE bushings in as many places as you can.

Paul Bell

iTrader: (9)

Good info Mr. Element, thanks. I'll take your experiance and advise about the lower bushings under consideration.

Meanwhile, I did get some "1LE" rear control arm bushings. $13.99 each at Pep Boys. They can be found under the Moog number on eekbay for the same price for two-packs.

Paul Bell

iTrader: (9)

OK guys, can somebody point me in the direction of 1LE front lower control arm bushings? Thus far, I can only find them when ordering the complete 1LE lower control arms from GM. NOBODY lists 1LE bushings separately. Yes, the 1LE arms have different bushings, the arm itself is the same as non-1LE.

99FormulaM6r

iTrader: (2)

with that part number (K6178) every parts store I look at has them listed as the bushings, not the arm.

Strano has the bushings also, they're on his site under "suspension"