Suspension/rod end rant + what I'm doing to fix it
01-26-2011, 03:07 PM
#82
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Its the Del Sphere type. They are from Sphon Perf. You might have commented on them eariler in the thread. They have a rod end surrounded by delrin. They are adjustable greaseable, and rebuildable. The ride may be too harsh for your taste. So far so good for me. I'm thinking about using them on the rear arms and panhard when the rod ends wear out on them.
Good info on the 1le bushings tearing. Mine were ripped when I pulled the arms off. I figured it was do to the age and mileage of them.
Good info on the 1le bushings tearing. Mine were ripped when I pulled the arms off. I figured it was do to the age and mileage of them.
01-26-2011, 04:53 PM
#83
OK, it's not a standard type bushing with Delrin plastic.
As I said above I like a hard ride and I've tried these joints already. They loosened up in an unacceptable amount of time and began rattling. I had them in the rear control arms. They became as noisy as bad rod ends.
508HP!
As I said above I like a hard ride and I've tried these joints already. They loosened up in an unacceptable amount of time and began rattling. I had them in the rear control arms. They became as noisy as bad rod ends.
508HP!
03-11-2011, 10:13 PM
#84
And the saga continues. As some of you guys know, the streets and highways of NYC look like they've been carpet bombed. It's like a third world country here. While I've driven carefully, potholes can't always be avoided.
While I've been very happy with all the work I did to my suspension, about a month ago my alignment went off, crooked steering wheel, and I got another alignment. All was good again.
Earlier this week, the steering wheel starting getting crooked again. OK, time for another alignment. ****** NYC streets GRRRR... Planned for tomorrow morning, I jacked up the car tonight to do pads, rotors, new wheel hubs, lube and an oil change before the alignment job..
The left side lower control arm has cracked around the caster bushing (rear) pocket.
Not happy about this. I reinforced and powder coated these arms. Now WTF am I gonna do?
I need a set of chrome-moly tubular aftermarket arms WITHOUT spherical rod end joints.
Any ideas?
I'm too old for this ****, I don't have a lift. THIS SUCKS.
While I've been very happy with all the work I did to my suspension, about a month ago my alignment went off, crooked steering wheel, and I got another alignment. All was good again.
Earlier this week, the steering wheel starting getting crooked again. OK, time for another alignment. ****** NYC streets GRRRR... Planned for tomorrow morning, I jacked up the car tonight to do pads, rotors, new wheel hubs, lube and an oil change before the alignment job..
The left side lower control arm has cracked around the caster bushing (rear) pocket.
Not happy about this. I reinforced and powder coated these arms. Now WTF am I gonna do?
I need a set of chrome-moly tubular aftermarket arms WITHOUT spherical rod end joints.
Any ideas?
I'm too old for this ****, I don't have a lift. THIS SUCKS.
03-12-2011, 05:33 AM
#86
I'm considering these from UMI. Delrin rear bushing, Del-sphere front, it's as close to non rod end/non poly bushed as I can find. Fully greasable. In 4130 chrome moly, over $500.00. I don't care for these Del-sphere bushings but it's better than a rod end.
Last edited by Paul Bell; 03-12-2011 at 05:39 AM.
03-12-2011, 07:16 AM
#87
Not too say I told you so to people on the board who said Poly was fine. But, I told you so. One of the links I sent stated fatigue as one of the issues.
http://hewsoninc.ca/mythinformation.htm
I fail to comprehend what exactly is so bad about rubber on a street car, first. Going on from there even Sam Strano runs rubber in his competition car.
http://hewsoninc.ca/mythinformation.htm
I fail to comprehend what exactly is so bad about rubber on a street car, first. Going on from there even Sam Strano runs rubber in his competition car.
Last edited by lees02WS6; 03-12-2011 at 08:26 AM.
03-12-2011, 09:50 AM
#88
Metal components breaking will not be the result of the material chosen for the bushing. My STOCK lower control arm broke due to road conditions. The area that broke is much beefier and stronger than the broken component you've shown.
I fail to see how you can claim "I told you so".
While I do appreciate yours and every-bodies input to this thread, I would've broken the LCA regardless of brand, style, material, etc.
If I had went with aftermarket tubular arms and the damage was similar to what you showed, it would just be a matter of changing the thread-on bushing component, not the entire arm as I now have to do. Far easier and less costly.
Thousands (I'm sure) of tubular aftermarket control arms are in use around the world, no doubt the majority with poly bushings. If the breakage you've shown was common, surely they're makers would change them.
I'm thinking the broken part you've shown is due to extreme driving such as through holes, bad bumps or a hard drop after a cool looking wheelie at the track. I'm of the opinion that it's a rarity.
Early on in this project, I did study that myth information page pretty deeply. It's one of the reasons I wanted to avoid poly in the first place.
I fail to see how you can claim "I told you so".
While I do appreciate yours and every-bodies input to this thread, I would've broken the LCA regardless of brand, style, material, etc.
If I had went with aftermarket tubular arms and the damage was similar to what you showed, it would just be a matter of changing the thread-on bushing component, not the entire arm as I now have to do. Far easier and less costly.
Thousands (I'm sure) of tubular aftermarket control arms are in use around the world, no doubt the majority with poly bushings. If the breakage you've shown was common, surely they're makers would change them.
I'm thinking the broken part you've shown is due to extreme driving such as through holes, bad bumps or a hard drop after a cool looking wheelie at the track. I'm of the opinion that it's a rarity.
Early on in this project, I did study that myth information page pretty deeply. It's one of the reasons I wanted to avoid poly in the first place.
Last edited by Paul Bell; 03-12-2011 at 10:00 AM.
03-12-2011, 11:31 AM
#91
The I told you so, doesn't mean I specifically told you not to do it, so if you've taken personal offense to it that is not intended.
However, I have been shouted down repeatedly on this board, and told poly bushings are fine. They are not fine. Yes harsh road conditions and the age of the part are contributing factors. However, the choice of bushing material does matter. A harder bushing will force the metal to flex instead. A hard bushing was placed in an area that requires deflection, and lots of it. With out the required flexibility in the bushing the metal flexed instead...bang.....broken part.
A) Poly bushings bind and stick. B) They deform (cold flow), the softer ones deform more quickly and the harder ones... C) Fatigue the metal parts they are in or themselves, and one or the other will fail. I have more pictures.
Why don't UMI, BMR, Global West, etc sell an a-arm with a Poly bushing in that location? You have your answer in the picture.
However, I have been shouted down repeatedly on this board, and told poly bushings are fine. They are not fine. Yes harsh road conditions and the age of the part are contributing factors. However, the choice of bushing material does matter. A harder bushing will force the metal to flex instead. A hard bushing was placed in an area that requires deflection, and lots of it. With out the required flexibility in the bushing the metal flexed instead...bang.....broken part.
A) Poly bushings bind and stick. B) They deform (cold flow), the softer ones deform more quickly and the harder ones... C) Fatigue the metal parts they are in or themselves, and one or the other will fail. I have more pictures.
Why don't UMI, BMR, Global West, etc sell an a-arm with a Poly bushing in that location? You have your answer in the picture.
03-12-2011, 01:56 PM
#92
No worries Lee, I'm not taking your comment personally nor am I saying you're incorrect. In fact, I agree that this particular location does flex a lot. However, in normal use with this poly bushing, this should have not broken. I consider my use abnormal due to the excessively poor road conditions here in NYC. This cannot be a common problem using poly in this location. Certainly others have used the same bushing in this location, they're made by at least two companies.
03-12-2011, 10:06 PM
#94
It's the horrible roads around here that did me in. Certainly, if the roads were in good shape, I would not have broken the arm.
It's not uncommon in these parts for suspensions on regular cars often driven (like taxicabs, police cars, etc.) to break parts such as this. Don't totally blame the poly joint-although it added to the problem. Surely many use them without issue. I do drive this car-a lot.
The UMI arm I'm looking at has the Roto-joint which is less resistive to movement than the Prothane poly and will allow the spring & shock to control/limit it's movement. This will stress the joint less.
03-12-2011, 10:52 PM
#96
Yep, 4140 chrome moly. The joint has Delrin inserts.
I tried these already in rear control arms and they started rattling and needed adjustment within maybe a month of installation. While not my optimum solution, it's the least of the evils.
I tried these already in rear control arms and they started rattling and needed adjustment within maybe a month of installation. While not my optimum solution, it's the least of the evils.
05-08-2011, 10:24 PM
#100
Update time folks.
First an update on all the work I've done. I'm very happy with everything. The parts seem to be holding up pretty good despite the roads I battle everyday. I swear they're getting worse, not better. The car handles great-not far off from full rod end joints I'll say. I highly recommend the Global West upper arms with the Del-alum (Delrin) bushings and the UMI lower arms with the Delrin/Roto Joint combo.
After installing all these nice front end goodies on my car, it seemed to sit very high-way too high for me. I don't want a lowered car and the stock ride height was just fine. I needed to get it back to where it was. It was so freekin high I had to adjust the HID's down.
I called UMI and there were miffed. I do know their parts match stock measurements. They said this is very uncommon and I believe them.
I called another (to remain un-named) suspension guy and he was of no help. He appeared to get angry with me. I was basically trying to find decent lowering springs. I still had stock springs.
I eventually fell upon the Vogtland spring set at the WS6 store. I installed them today. At the same time, I removed the 1/4 inch aluminum lower shock spacer that UMI sends along with their LCA's. The springs drop 1.2 inches and I was looking for about a inch and a half. Pretty close.
The car looks worlds better. I bet it'll handle pretty good also.
I'm at the point where I can R&R the front suspension in my sleep, one hand tied behind my back, a beer in the other hand and while blindfolded. On the ground, no lift.
First an update on all the work I've done. I'm very happy with everything. The parts seem to be holding up pretty good despite the roads I battle everyday. I swear they're getting worse, not better. The car handles great-not far off from full rod end joints I'll say. I highly recommend the Global West upper arms with the Del-alum (Delrin) bushings and the UMI lower arms with the Delrin/Roto Joint combo.
After installing all these nice front end goodies on my car, it seemed to sit very high-way too high for me. I don't want a lowered car and the stock ride height was just fine. I needed to get it back to where it was. It was so freekin high I had to adjust the HID's down.
I called UMI and there were miffed. I do know their parts match stock measurements. They said this is very uncommon and I believe them.
I called another (to remain un-named) suspension guy and he was of no help. He appeared to get angry with me. I was basically trying to find decent lowering springs. I still had stock springs.
I eventually fell upon the Vogtland spring set at the WS6 store. I installed them today. At the same time, I removed the 1/4 inch aluminum lower shock spacer that UMI sends along with their LCA's. The springs drop 1.2 inches and I was looking for about a inch and a half. Pretty close.
The car looks worlds better. I bet it'll handle pretty good also.
I'm at the point where I can R&R the front suspension in my sleep, one hand tied behind my back, a beer in the other hand and while blindfolded. On the ground, no lift.