02T/A-WS6

iTrader: (4)

I recently did an auto x even with my car and I all ready knew it had lots of body roll and that the stock brakes are garbage, but I found out just how bad it really is. So bad that the abs was kicking on but it really wasnt haha. Just the brakes being faded and glazed over so the pads were skipping aaaaaa lot. I dont want to turn the car into a full on auto x car but would just like to get it on it way to handling and braking better.

I have search a bit on both topic but havent really found the opinions for something like this. Are pads and sways the best place to start for both issues?

I was considering some 35mm and 22mm solid sways...Who has what? and did you see any noticeably less body roll and weight transfer?

As far as brakes go I would like your opinions about what you have as far as bite,brake dust, wear etc.

I have some brands in mind for each but just wanted to hear about all the options out there.

Thanks for you help

02T/A-WS6

iTrader: (4)

forgot to mention that I usually put a little over 1k miles on a year and its very spirited driving plus some 1/4 mile and autox's so I need something thats fairly aggressive with good bite and prefer the least amount of dust

99SSJarhead

iTrader: (2)

Brakes someone else will have to chime in with but for body roll some of the best guys will tell you that you more than likely want to start out with a good set of shocks. I checked your fquick but didn't see anything as far as shocks went which makes me think you might still have stock decarbons (they will be orange). Getting those out from under the car for a set of bilstiens will show a huge improvement.

Now I say bilstiens for cost. If you can drop a grand without blinking Koni single adjustable shocks hands down.

From there then I'd start looking at front/rear sways. 35/22's are pretty well the gold standard here. UMI's solid bars a good and well priced but for a slight increase Sam Strano's hollows give the same benefit but with a weight reduction. You're car will be much flatter around turns with those and Sam is an avid SCCA participant with numerous championships so his parts are track tested winners.

02T/A-WS6

iTrader: (4)

yea I definitely cant drop a grand haha....this will be an on goin thing for a while.

Yup no suspension or brake mods....all stock there.

So you say shocks would give me less body roll by themselves and not sways? Are they a stiffer shock? Im not really familiar with suspension stuff so stay with me haha. I always thought that shock keep the springs from bouncing you up and down after you hit a bump... shows how much I know haha

99SSJarhead

iTrader: (2)

Better shocks will firm up the ride so that when you make turns the shock doesn't compress as far or bounce back as much. This will lead to a flatter ride in corners.

Front and rear sways will certainly help but without good shocks your still going to run into the same issue.

As you said it is going to be an on going process.

99FormulaM6r

iTrader: (2)

Basically, shocks dictate how quickly the springs compress/rebound, while sways and springs dictate how far they can compress/rebound.

Both take care of separate issues, if you just want less body roll, sways or springs (springs can also control the fore/aft motion) are the way to go. If you want to do a better job controlling the rate that the body rolls, dives, rises on acceleration, etc....that's the shock's job.

Basically, all three are important when dealing with how a car handles. In the case of these cars, it's usually shocks>sways>springs when dealing with how the car handles. Good shocks make the largest handling difference. Bilsteins are good, Koni's are better (not quite a grand, about $850 or so IIRC) and offer adjustability/two front spring perches/work better with different spring ranges, and there are other options out there as well (the two listed are probably the most recommended by Strano himself, and I have personal experience with the Koni's w/ stock springs). My Koni's did improve the handling and high speed stability, while still maintaining a good ride and being much more controlled.

Sways, like I said, control how much the body can roll from side to side by basically acting as a torsional spring between the drivers and passenger's side of the car. The size of the bars dictate how much "slop" there would be from side to side, with a smaller bar allowing the driver's and passenger's side to have more of a ride height difference in a hard corner than a larger bar. The size between the front and the rear can have a large effect on how a car handles through the corners, such as creating oversteer/understeer. The 35/22mm combination (sold by UMI and Strano) seems to be very popular for making the car handle neutrally and cutting down on body roll.

Springs, finally, also have a large impact on handling, but you have to be careful here. Springs can increase rates to allow for less wheel travel and lower the car for less drag at high speeds and a lower CG in the corners. However, out of the three, they seem to be the most misunderstood. When you lower the car, you give up suspension travel. When you give up suspension travel, you must increase the rates of the springs to keep the car from bottoming out. If you are considering lowering your car, I would recommend Strano's springs, especially being he designed them off of his auto-x car as well as being suited to street driving. Be aware though, that lowering springs, even when properly designed, will make a car handle more harshly on rough roads than stock springs (with higher travel/lower rates).


As far as brakes go, for a normal street car that see's auto-x, I'd go with Hawk HPS pads, good quality blanks, and good fluid (such as ATE Super Blue). If you want, go with some stainless lines to help with feel. I've been in arguments on here about the difference between drilled/slotted rotors and blanks, but for a street car I would still go with good quality blank rotors to avoid cracks/extend pad life, while still providing almost exactly the same cooling/bite for a normal street/auto-x car.

BTW, I've had good luck with Napa Ultra Premium rotors, and very poor luck with Brembo blanks (out of box quality issues) lately.

z28bryan

iTrader: (7)

If you've never touched your brake system, a good flush, cleaning/regreasing the caliper pins, pads, and rotors will go a long way. The stock system is fine for autox and all thats legal for FS and ESP.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

For the record, I not only carry my bars, but also sell the UMI version. Mine weight significantly less, cost a little more, but cost less to ship. We use different hardware too. They are not the same. And trust me just the fact the front bar is lighter makes it much less hassle to install.

Also, before I forget---the stock front bar is hollow already, so solid bars add a lot of weight. In fact my bars vs. solids the same size are about 20 pounds less for the set. That's a lot for a little money vs. say saving 5 pounds for $100 extra by buying say Chrome-Moly SFC's (as an example).

02T/A-WS6

iTrader: (4)

Your sways were definitely some that I was considering...Do they still hold a similar amount of "tension" even though they are hollow?

HAZ-Matt

iTrader: (8)

Even if they were a few percent less stiff, is a little more roll resistance worth the extra weight in front of the wheels?

You need to fix the shocks if you are running the stock ones because the damping is not conducive to controlled driving around corners. Although they won't increase roll resistance, they will reduce roll rate. You should also find that weight transfer is more precise and all in all the car will feel much better to drive.

The brake thing would lead me to believe that you have crappy pads (or rather you are demanding more than they were designed for temp wise). Get a set of performance oriented pads. You shouldn't really need some super hi temp compounds for a little auto-x and the street. Hawk is overly popular here. There isn't a huge selection for our cars, but there are alternatives like Carbotech as well. StopTech makes a high performance steet pad, I don't know how well it works (it is actually some sort of Centric pad under the Stop Tech brand, but I have not used it). The company that made my pads is bankrupt so no point in recommending them...

Additionally, you might want to flush the fluid if you haven't done it. The youngest of these cars are about 10 years old and if you have original fluid it is long since past its prime. For fun just find a nice synthetic DOT4 equivalent fluid.

02T/A-WS6

iTrader: (4)

Soo at this point i think im about settled on shocks...either bilstein HD's or SLP's not sure what the difference is there. Then I would probably be wanting some of sams sways. I have seen that hawks are very popular and have had mixed reviews of them. I was also considering some of EBC's redstuff pads. I would like to see some reviews by people that actually run them...along with any other pad if you confident in them. Least amount of dust along with good bite and resistant to fade.
One thing that has got my attention is the brakemotive sale with their setups. 4 rotors cross drilled/slotted(I would get just slotted) and their pads for like 165. Seems like a great deal...just wondering about reviews on them. I am wondering if "you get what you pay for" applies.

99SSJarhead

iTrader: (2)

No real difference in SLP or HD anymore. Find whichever are on sale or better priced.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Are you asking if they will yield with time, or if they are just softer? The answer to the first is "no" (stock front bars are hollow, with less wall thickness, and hollow bars aren't all that uncommon). The answer to the second: A bar is a torsion bar, it works by twisting. The outside moves a lot more than the very middle, and more and more so on a bigger and bigger bar. Which is why when calculating how stiff a bar is you take the Outside diameter and multiply to the 4th power... that's how much the outside diameter matters. The very middle offers very little roll stiffness. Yes, some.... but not nearly as much as you'd think.

And finally: I offered solid bars for years. It was just silly though, so I quit, and that's when UMI started with the same sizing (and we talked about it, Ryan asked me it if was ok, and I said yes because if I needed solids for some reason I had access to them).

HAZ-Matt

iTrader: (8)

Hawk has a bunch of different compounds so it depends on how much of a track pad versus daily pad you want. They are popular on here, not necessarily as much in some other circles. What pads were on the car before that seemed to glaze?

Autocross isn't as bad temp wise as a road course usually so perhaps you can get away with a with a high performance street pad. This is going to be hugely dependent on the layout and your braking technique. You could also consider getting a street pad and a set of higher temp pads and just swapping them before the autocross.

If they are coming with the Power Stop Z16 pads you might not like them for autocross. They are sort of biased towards a street car. Ceramic with low dust and noise. They make a Z26 series carbon metallic that is supposed to be their high performance street pad. I haven't used either. Have heard the Z16 compared to the HPS... which isn't a Hawk ceramic so who knows if it really stops similarly. But even if it did it probably isn't the type of pad you are looking for.

02T/A-WS6

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for the info...really helps me understand it a bit better!!!
exactly the info I was lookin for!!

02T/A-WS6

iTrader: (4)

The car has stock pads and rotors now. The first time I noticed I had to hit them hard at 140 and I knew they glazed over almost instantly....since then I have left myself a lot more road to slow down. I always said I would upgrade once they wore out but not Im in need of better braking. Im usually not hard on brakes but there are times would like to slow down fast. I put a little over 1k miles on the car a year so im not too concerned with having a "daily" pad. Like I said I have only done one autocross but I am interested in trying a road course as well. So I guess I would be interested in a pad with good initial/cold bit along with a bit higher temp to handle a road course etc.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

A street pad won't make a very good track pad....... I sell brakes too, and cheap pads don't tend to work as well as higher end pads (like most things you do get what you pay for). Hawk HPS are great street pads, so are the ATE pads, the Z16's (which I also carry) are ok, but nothing to write home about.

Bottom line is that I won't let you think that your "performance" pads are really track worthy, because brakes aren't something to mess around with.

Also, beware of cheap slotted and drilled rotors. They are cheap for a reason, because they use inexpensive rotors, then start cutting on them which doesn't do much to help the strength of them either.

JD_AMG

Step up and get some Koni SA's, seriously you wont regret it - easily my favorite mod.

HAZ-Matt

iTrader: (8)

I don't even hardly remember the performance of the OEM pads since I haven't had them in 8 yrs. Various ceramic pads can get ruined if you heat them over their limit, but I don't think I ever tried to stop real fast on OEM pads.

It is basically impossible to make a pad that is good at driving around town, good at autocross, and good at a road course. These are all different environments with different temperature envelopes, although autocross and performance street driving are somewhat close in that you don't want to give up lower temperature bite or torque. If you run a road race type pad on the street you will be hard pressed to heat them to their optimal range and you will waste pad and rotor life and be stuck with dust, noise, and suboptimal braking during most of your drive.

There are some compromise types of solutions though that give up one thing or another but are marketed as street/autocross certainly not street and road race. HP+ is an attempt at a compromise. I'm not sure it makes sense when the DTC30 exists and is somewhat similar in low temp performance, but has a lot higher upper temperature limit. Potential for lots of dust and noise though. Don't think the DTC30's have corrosive dust like the higher track models, but I may be wrong. The heat range for a DTC-30 is 100-1200F. An HP+ is optimal at 100-800F with upper limit of 900F. I don't know what the HPS is officially, but it is similar to HP+ in temp range, just with less dust and noise (and less torque).

Carbotech has the Bobcat which would be analogous to the HPS and is rated at "ambient to 900F." The next up would be the AX6 (which replaced the Panther Plus) with a range of 50-1150F. It is their recommended autocross pad, and just like with Hawk it can dust and make noise on the street.

As far as generalities go, Carbotech is easier on rotors but the pads wear perhaps a little faster than the analogous Hawks, and they modulate a little better when you start getting up into the more aggressive compounds. Hawk pads will last a little longer but they are harsher on the rotors, and there race pads make dust that is corrosive to paint.

All in all I don't really think you should go out and look at track pads just cause the OEM pads let you down. HPS or Bobcat would probably be good for you on the street. If you rarely autocross those are the sort of pad I would probably get. Although some people do daily AX6's or DTC-30s...

For a real road course or HPDE you might be able to get away with street pads as a novice although they will wear fast and they will fade, so you would need to adjust technique. And of course you do run the risk of glazing them if you get them too hot. You could however get a track compound (like DTC-60 or XP10, etc) and swap them out if you do go road racing.

HAZ-Matt

iTrader: (8)

Agree with the sentiment, shocks are basically my favorite mod. I don't know that I would say there is a great difference in Bilstein versus Koni on a stock sprung predominantly street car though. Both made the car significantly better. If you don't want adjust-ability or a little drop in the front then I might just go with Bilstein.