Every bump
Inquire away......I'll be more than happy to answer your questions. I have no agenda here as I don't represent any of the brands listed. I'm merely expressing my opinion which is also echoed by a few others on this board...REVGTO being one of them.
Koni's were brand new D/A's up front and used D/A's in the rear. I'm still running the rears as I'm not unhappy with them. My main issue is with the Koni's up front. They are firm as hell and will send your turn signal switch bouncing around on bad roads and bumps. This was on full soft and I did adjust them before removing them to see how hard they really could get. This was on completely stock springs and wheels. The only change I made was the Koni's. I even took the tire pressure down to 24 or so trying to soften things up. Still didn't help enough.
My Ws6 Decarbons only had maybe 40k as well on them when I took them off. They weren't harsh at all from my experience. They were just too floaty in my opinion and didn't control the front end well.
Koni's were brand new D/A's up front and used D/A's in the rear. I'm still running the rears as I'm not unhappy with them. My main issue is with the Koni's up front. They are firm as hell and will send your turn signal switch bouncing around on bad roads and bumps. This was on full soft and I did adjust them before removing them to see how hard they really could get. This was on completely stock springs and wheels. The only change I made was the Koni's. I even took the tire pressure down to 24 or so trying to soften things up. Still didn't help enough.
My Ws6 Decarbons only had maybe 40k as well on them when I took them off. They weren't harsh at all from my experience. They were just too floaty in my opinion and didn't control the front end well.
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From: St.Charles MO
Inquire away......I'll be more than happy to answer your questions. I have no agenda here as I don't represent any of the brands listed. I'm merely expressing my opinion which is also echoed by a few others on this board...REVGTO being one of them.
Koni's were brand new D/A's up front and used D/A's in the rear. I'm still running the rears as I'm not unhappy with them. My main issue is with the Koni's up front. They are firm as hell and will send your turn signal switch bouncing around on bad roads and bumps. This was on full soft and I did adjust them before removing them to see how hard they really could get. This was on completely stock springs and wheels. The only change I made was the Koni's. I even took the tire pressure down to 24 or so trying to soften things up. Still didn't help enough.
My Ws6 Decarbons only had maybe 40k as well on them when I took them off. They weren't harsh at all from my experience. They were just too floaty in my opinion and didn't control the front end well.
Koni's were brand new D/A's up front and used D/A's in the rear. I'm still running the rears as I'm not unhappy with them. My main issue is with the Koni's up front. They are firm as hell and will send your turn signal switch bouncing around on bad roads and bumps. This was on full soft and I did adjust them before removing them to see how hard they really could get. This was on completely stock springs and wheels. The only change I made was the Koni's. I even took the tire pressure down to 24 or so trying to soften things up. Still didn't help enough.
My Ws6 Decarbons only had maybe 40k as well on them when I took them off. They weren't harsh at all from my experience. They were just too floaty in my opinion and didn't control the front end well.
Did you adjust the compression setting? That should be the **** at the bottom of the shock. Did you turn that all the way down?
Of course I did. I personally installed them and I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything before I took them back off. I ran them for a good 7k miles before I tried the Bilsteins.
If the S/A's are radically different than the D/A's at full soft, then you're right, I'm comparing apples to oranges.
If the S/A's are radically different than the D/A's at full soft, then you're right, I'm comparing apples to oranges.
Have had (new)Koni DA's front and rear on my car before, the compression dampening on the DA's definitely felt higher, even when set to full soft. With the Koni SA's I'm running now they ride as least as soft as Bilsteins or the Edelbrock IAS that I've also had before. IMO, the Koni SA's ride good.
Fair enough. For some reason this is a very touchy subject, when it shouldn't be. Like I said, I'm not trying to say Koni is bad and Bilstein is good. They're both great options. This isn't the first time that I've read where people aren't thrilled with the firmness of the Koni's. I'm merely sharing my experience with them for the benefit of others.
Yeah, I know I would never recommend the Koni DA's for the street unless you only drive on buttery smooth roads. I'd consider the DA's better suited for track use.
Hence the trouble with the internet sometimes.
RevGTO is one of maybe, at best 5 folks I can think of that had an issue with the Koni ride. And fwiw that is a 100% valid opinion as I know what he was comparing and specifically what he felt. He was also more after ride later than performance.
I still didn't see some of the details of setup on Starion's car. Like where the rebound was set.. Because you can kill compression and if the rebound is high it will be quite stiff. But there are other differences, DA's for example don't have as much travel (and it's not like any of them have lots) due to the extra stuff in the bottom for the compression adjuster.
I don't think anyone took anything personally, but it did appear to me to be a pretty blanket statement that if you want performance get Koni, but that they can't ride well. To be fair I think more folks feel opposite of that than agree. Add the variables of the DA's vs. SA's and personal taste and things are very as clear as they seem. I've run DA's and SA's, 99Bluz28 has run both. I think we can all agree they are somewhat more aggressive, and yes have higher compression (one reason I often recommend them for heavier than stock rear axles).
RevGTO is one of maybe, at best 5 folks I can think of that had an issue with the Koni ride. And fwiw that is a 100% valid opinion as I know what he was comparing and specifically what he felt. He was also more after ride later than performance.
I still didn't see some of the details of setup on Starion's car. Like where the rebound was set.. Because you can kill compression and if the rebound is high it will be quite stiff. But there are other differences, DA's for example don't have as much travel (and it's not like any of them have lots) due to the extra stuff in the bottom for the compression adjuster.
I don't think anyone took anything personally, but it did appear to me to be a pretty blanket statement that if you want performance get Koni, but that they can't ride well. To be fair I think more folks feel opposite of that than agree. Add the variables of the DA's vs. SA's and personal taste and things are very as clear as they seem. I've run DA's and SA's, 99Bluz28 has run both. I think we can all agree they are somewhat more aggressive, and yes have higher compression (one reason I often recommend them for heavier than stock rear axles).
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Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
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www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
I assure you, I adjusted the living hell out of the shocks prior to pulling them off. The last thing I wanted to do was to change the front shocks again. I started with minimum compression/rebound and tried nearly every combination in between.
My experience was exactly the same as RevGTO's in regards to the impact harshness. Koni's are much less forgiving in that manner.
I understand that the majority disagree with my opinion on the Koni's. Just because most people think they're the cat's ***, doesn't mean everybody does. I don't understand why there is an immediate assumption that I'm just a moron that doesn't know how to adjust my shocks.
My experience was exactly the same as RevGTO's in regards to the impact harshness. Koni's are much less forgiving in that manner.
I understand that the majority disagree with my opinion on the Koni's. Just because most people think they're the cat's ***, doesn't mean everybody does. I don't understand why there is an immediate assumption that I'm just a moron that doesn't know how to adjust my shocks.
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Verdad Gallardo Hey.. I didn't call you a moron. No reason to get testy. Fine you didn't like 'em, I get it. You have to understand that all day, every day, I hear "I heard on the internet that..." without a lot of supporting evidence for whatever these people heard. So, I tend to want to discuss particulars, is that offensive? If it is, I'm very sorry
You are absolutely right that because a lot of folks like something doesn't mean everyone will. Of course the opposite is true as well, some can dislike things that many others love.
You weren't exactly fair in that you had DA's where most folks have SA's and they do ride a big differently, but you painted all the Koni's with the same brush. And sure RevGTO and you seem to agree, but he had SA's and you had DA's. Maybe you'd not have felt the same on SA's? Hard to know for sure.
If the best ride is what folks are after, then those folks shouldn't be on lowering springs at all, but when you tell them that they often decide it's worth the trade-off. Many do the same with the shocks too. I carry Bilstein too. I sell Bilstein when I think they are warranted, I have no problem doing so.
You are absolutely right that because a lot of folks like something doesn't mean everyone will. Of course the opposite is true as well, some can dislike things that many others love.
You weren't exactly fair in that you had DA's where most folks have SA's and they do ride a big differently, but you painted all the Koni's with the same brush. And sure RevGTO and you seem to agree, but he had SA's and you had DA's. Maybe you'd not have felt the same on SA's? Hard to know for sure.
If the best ride is what folks are after, then those folks shouldn't be on lowering springs at all, but when you tell them that they often decide it's worth the trade-off. Many do the same with the shocks too. I carry Bilstein too. I sell Bilstein when I think they are warranted, I have no problem doing so.
__________________
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
That's a definitely 100% valid point. I conceded that I cannot speak for the SA's in particular since I only had the DA's. I was under the impression that they were similar, with only the additional adjustability of compression being the difference. Apparently, I was mistaken.
Therefore, I will only officially condemn the Koni DA's.
Therefore, I will only officially condemn the Koni DA's.
Not everyone wants to daily drive or frequently street drive a car setup for autox.
There's more than 5 users on this site that prefer the ride quality of a Bilstein shock over a Koni SA, most of them are probably just hesitant to post due to Koni fanboys flaming them for saying something negative about the holy grail of shocks for these cars. Sam you know your stuff and can drive I'll give you that, but not everyone is looking for a car setup for the cones or roadcourse out of their own car.
If the car's going to be street driven frequently on anything less the smoothest of roads, go with Bilsteins. In an otherwise well setup car (good lowering springs, good larger swaybars), most here would be content with what the car is capable of and still maintain a better ride quality than a Koni SA can offer.
There's more than 5 users on this site that prefer the ride quality of a Bilstein shock over a Koni SA, most of them are probably just hesitant to post due to Koni fanboys flaming them for saying something negative about the holy grail of shocks for these cars. Sam you know your stuff and can drive I'll give you that, but not everyone is looking for a car setup for the cones or roadcourse out of their own car.
If the car's going to be street driven frequently on anything less the smoothest of roads, go with Bilsteins. In an otherwise well setup car (good lowering springs, good larger swaybars), most here would be content with what the car is capable of and still maintain a better ride quality than a Koni SA can offer.
Oh brother.
Well, to start with Koni Sports are NOT race shocks, they are street shocks that happen to offer such good control that a lot of us still compete on them even against $3-6k sets of things like Penske's and MCS, and JRZ, and Motons.
I've also had a lot of customers more from Bilstein's to Koni's over the years, many more so than have gone the other way. Like anything these decisions and what makes people happy is never the same for everyone. Which is WHY I carry both.
Well, to start with Koni Sports are NOT race shocks, they are street shocks that happen to offer such good control that a lot of us still compete on them even against $3-6k sets of things like Penske's and MCS, and JRZ, and Motons.
I've also had a lot of customers more from Bilstein's to Koni's over the years, many more so than have gone the other way. Like anything these decisions and what makes people happy is never the same for everyone. Which is WHY I carry both.
__________________
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
What shock did you run on the white car that was setup for the road course Sam?
I know it's opinion based, but sometimes it helps to put things out there in plain english instead of beating around the bush.
Koni's do control the car better by doing what you'd want them to do while driving the car aggressively. They do it well for the money in comparison to an all out race shock as you mentioned.
However, the softest setting on a Koni SA is still much stiffer than a Bilstein. This equates to feeling the road more with a Koni.
A bilstein dampens the harshness of road imperfections better, but doing so causes the car to not feel quite as gripped to the road as well as a Koni. But like I said, for what most do with these cars around here, a Bilstein is more than adequate and more comfortable for a daily driver type application.
Plan simple english seems to be left out of the hearsay of these two products and is misleading to people.
I know it's opinion based, but sometimes it helps to put things out there in plain english instead of beating around the bush.
Koni's do control the car better by doing what you'd want them to do while driving the car aggressively. They do it well for the money in comparison to an all out race shock as you mentioned.
However, the softest setting on a Koni SA is still much stiffer than a Bilstein. This equates to feeling the road more with a Koni.
A bilstein dampens the harshness of road imperfections better, but doing so causes the car to not feel quite as gripped to the road as well as a Koni. But like I said, for what most do with these cars around here, a Bilstein is more than adequate and more comfortable for a daily driver type application.
Plan simple english seems to be left out of the hearsay of these two products and is misleading to people.
I ran Koni's on my Camaro. I also have run Koni's on two different winter beater only BMW 325is's. The '94 I had Sports on, the '93 I have now I opted to try the STR.T's on.
And again, I've had customers... people on this forum... come to my shop in the past adn go for rides on the roads here in Western PA (which are subject to the winter ravages, frost heaves, etc.), and comment about how well the car rode on Koni Sports, with not only stock springs, but also my springs (and even some stiffer ones during testing).
You seem to imply that the Bilstein's just ride better, period, and Koni's ride worse, period. And that Koni's have been control, period. Well I'll agree on the latter, but the former is very much personal. Ride quality is NOT the same for everyone. Lots of folks like how BMW's ride vs. say a Cadillac. I'd not call most BMW's harsh, but some folks do. I'd not call all Cadillac's (lately) floaty messes, but they certainly do tend to be softer than the a BMW even when the Caddy's have MR shocks.
I drove a ZL1 not long ago during a track day and was horrified at the lack of control it had with it's MR shocks "all the way up" as the PTM system was in Race mode. A box stock Z51 C6 was way better controlled.
And again, I've had customers... people on this forum... come to my shop in the past adn go for rides on the roads here in Western PA (which are subject to the winter ravages, frost heaves, etc.), and comment about how well the car rode on Koni Sports, with not only stock springs, but also my springs (and even some stiffer ones during testing).
You seem to imply that the Bilstein's just ride better, period, and Koni's ride worse, period. And that Koni's have been control, period. Well I'll agree on the latter, but the former is very much personal. Ride quality is NOT the same for everyone. Lots of folks like how BMW's ride vs. say a Cadillac. I'd not call most BMW's harsh, but some folks do. I'd not call all Cadillac's (lately) floaty messes, but they certainly do tend to be softer than the a BMW even when the Caddy's have MR shocks.
I drove a ZL1 not long ago during a track day and was horrified at the lack of control it had with it's MR shocks "all the way up" as the PTM system was in Race mode. A box stock Z51 C6 was way better controlled.
__________________
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
I would say Koni SAs do a great job at controlling the car on my SS Vert, and I found them very similar to the stock SS/WS6 de Carbon/Delphi shocks except they control much better w/out the floatiness -- to me the ride feels much the same, dependent upon shock settings. Z28/V6 owners may notice an even bigger difference. The Bilsteins on my RS are definitely more 'relaxed' and "comfort oriented", but on the tormented midwest roads Jan-Mar, even the Bilsteins have been jarring at times.
I wonder how the ZL1 3rd Gen MR compares to the 1LE or Z/28 shocks on the track (all 5th Gen Camaro). Of course the MagneRide system GM uses is now owned by BeijingWest Industries who acquired the Delphi Chassis division.
http://www.bwigroup.com/en/pshow.php?pid=22
Wonder if de Carbon has improved after all these years? http://www.decarbon.com
I wonder how the ZL1 3rd Gen MR compares to the 1LE or Z/28 shocks on the track (all 5th Gen Camaro). Of course the MagneRide system GM uses is now owned by BeijingWest Industries who acquired the Delphi Chassis division.
http://www.bwigroup.com/en/pshow.php?pid=22Wonder if de Carbon has improved after all these years? http://www.decarbon.com
I ran Koni's on my Camaro. I also have run Koni's on two different winter beater only BMW 325is's. The '94 I had Sports on, the '93 I have now I opted to try the STR.T's on.
And again, I've had customers... people on this forum... come to my shop in the past adn go for rides on the roads here in Western PA (which are subject to the winter ravages, frost heaves, etc.), and comment about how well the car rode on Koni Sports, with not only stock springs, but also my springs (and even some stiffer ones during testing).
You seem to imply that the Bilstein's just ride better, period, and Koni's ride worse, period. And that Koni's have been control, period. Well I'll agree on the latter, but the former is very much personal. Ride quality is NOT the same for everyone. Lots of folks like how BMW's ride vs. say a Cadillac. I'd not call most BMW's harsh, but some folks do. I'd not call all Cadillac's (lately) floaty messes, but they certainly do tend to be softer than the a BMW even when the Caddy's have MR shocks.
I drove a ZL1 not long ago during a track day and was horrified at the lack of control it had with it's MR shocks "all the way up" as the PTM system was in Race mode. A box stock Z51 C6 was way better controlled.
And again, I've had customers... people on this forum... come to my shop in the past adn go for rides on the roads here in Western PA (which are subject to the winter ravages, frost heaves, etc.), and comment about how well the car rode on Koni Sports, with not only stock springs, but also my springs (and even some stiffer ones during testing).
You seem to imply that the Bilstein's just ride better, period, and Koni's ride worse, period. And that Koni's have been control, period. Well I'll agree on the latter, but the former is very much personal. Ride quality is NOT the same for everyone. Lots of folks like how BMW's ride vs. say a Cadillac. I'd not call most BMW's harsh, but some folks do. I'd not call all Cadillac's (lately) floaty messes, but they certainly do tend to be softer than the a BMW even when the Caddy's have MR shocks.
I drove a ZL1 not long ago during a track day and was horrified at the lack of control it had with it's MR shocks "all the way up" as the PTM system was in Race mode. A box stock Z51 C6 was way better controlled.
Last edited by libertyforall1776; Apr 21, 2014 at 09:29 PM.
Part of what you are feeling is the difference between a twin tube and monotube shock. Twin tubes do provide much better road feedback, which is why I prefer them on a street car.