What manufacturer wants to step up?
06-03-2004, 08:43 PM
#1
What manufacturer wants to step up? Here goes. I know that there are a ton of us f body guys that all either want to put 15 inch rims on our cars or drag racing reasons, or already have, and have milled the crap out of the calipers to do it. I know that someone that has a CNC could put the calipers on and accurately machine them down to clear 15 inch rims ( weld's, etc. ) If there's a shop out there that can get on getting this set up, and a decent exchange program going, I'm sure that there's gonna be a line of people wanting to get this done, myself included. I'm not sure what a reasonable price on his type of thing would be, I'm guessing somewhere around 300 for all 4 calipers + a core charge of some sort. I know that I'd be in for a set after the summer driving season's over, let's see what we can get set up and going!
06-03-2004, 09:04 PM
#2
We have designed Bogart rims to be a direct fitment so that grinding is not an issue as with welds. Centerline has less fitment issues also, though there smaller rim sizes aren't ideal nor is the backspace options.
I know we wouldn't be willing to mill down a set of calipers as there is a large liability for such work...for a person to do this, not at least be incorporated etc is playing with fire as if they are sued due to an accident which traces back to a faulty brake, they can loose everything they worked for....this day and age...it's not worth it.
The calipers float and there are other variences, it would be difficult to accuratly cut them for each customer...i'm sure most wouldn't want to spend the cash for a set CNC'd and they come back and still need a tad more work...milling them down to a min. isn't a good idea either if its not necessary...once again, some guys need additional material removed vs. others.
For the additional expense you incure, you may as well spend the additional money for a lighter, higher quality finish, higher caliper Bogart rim.
Hope this helps,
Steve
Pres.
I know we wouldn't be willing to mill down a set of calipers as there is a large liability for such work...for a person to do this, not at least be incorporated etc is playing with fire as if they are sued due to an accident which traces back to a faulty brake, they can loose everything they worked for....this day and age...it's not worth it.
The calipers float and there are other variences, it would be difficult to accuratly cut them for each customer...i'm sure most wouldn't want to spend the cash for a set CNC'd and they come back and still need a tad more work...milling them down to a min. isn't a good idea either if its not necessary...once again, some guys need additional material removed vs. others.
For the additional expense you incure, you may as well spend the additional money for a lighter, higher quality finish, higher caliper Bogart rim.
Hope this helps,
Steve
Pres.
Last edited by steve10; 06-03-2004 at 10:33 PM.
06-03-2004, 11:53 PM
#3
Originally Posted by steve10
We have designed Bogart rims to be a direct fitment so that grinding is not an issue as with welds. Centerline has less fitment issues also, though there smaller rim sizes aren't ideal nor is the backspace options.
I know we wouldn't be willing to mill down a set of calipers as there is a large liability for such work...for a person to do this, not at least be incorporated etc is playing with fire as if they are sued due to an accident which traces back to a faulty brake, they can loose everything they worked for....this day and age...it's not worth it.
The calipers float and there are other variences, it would be difficult to accuratly cut them for each customer...i'm sure most wouldn't want to spend the cash for a set CNC'd and they come back and still need a tad more work...milling them down to a min. isn't a good idea either if its not necessary...once again, some guys need additional material removed vs. others.
For the additional expense you incure, you may as well spend the additional money for a lighter, higher quality finish, higher caliper Bogart rim.
Hope this helps,
Steve
Pres.
I know we wouldn't be willing to mill down a set of calipers as there is a large liability for such work...for a person to do this, not at least be incorporated etc is playing with fire as if they are sued due to an accident which traces back to a faulty brake, they can loose everything they worked for....this day and age...it's not worth it.
The calipers float and there are other variences, it would be difficult to accuratly cut them for each customer...i'm sure most wouldn't want to spend the cash for a set CNC'd and they come back and still need a tad more work...milling them down to a min. isn't a good idea either if its not necessary...once again, some guys need additional material removed vs. others.
For the additional expense you incure, you may as well spend the additional money for a lighter, higher quality finish, higher caliper Bogart rim.
Hope this helps,
Steve
Pres.
06-04-2004, 06:22 AM
#4
If grinding caliperi sch a bad idea, why is there so many people doing it? Better yet, why has none come out with a smaller diameter brake setup for our cars so that this isn't needed? I will have to look into the bogart wheels, if there's something that has a good look to it, and needs no caliper mod's to fit n a 15inch size, I may go that route. How are the rims weight wise compared to a weld?
06-04-2004, 10:53 AM
#5
Originally Posted by JL ws-6
If grinding caliperi sch a bad idea, why is there so many people doing it? Better yet, why has none come out with a smaller diameter brake setup for our cars so that this isn't needed? I will have to look into the bogart wheels, if there's something that has a good look to it, and needs no caliper mod's to fit n a 15inch size, I may go that route. How are the rims weight wise compared to a weld?
As far as a smaller diameter brake system. Smaller brakes don't handle heat as well as larger (heavier) brakes. If I design and sell a "less effective" brake system and you use it and have an accident. I'd get sued. This is the same reason that nobody will offer ground calipers on an exchange basis. The best suggestion is to find wheels that fit and purchase them. Because I doubt that any company will do either of the things you ask in todays "sue happy" society. Just because someone makes wheels, doesn't mean they make them in the correct sizes, offsets, etc (caliper clearance) for your car. If they don't, then you will have to keep looking. I know that everyone wants to run Welds or whatever, but if they truly don't fit, you really should look elsewhere.
I really don't care what you do with your car. My concern is this.
I'm driving in traffic, the car ahead of me makes a panic stop. I slam on the brakes. I look in my mirror and see your car (thinking "he'll get stopped"). At the time you slam on the brakes, you have a caliper break in half. Now, what you do to your car just became "my problem". Everyone on these boards is free to go injure or kill themselves, this is America and you're allowed. But, you are not allowed to take anyone else with you, that is not in the rules. So, this is the reason for my concern when people start modifying safety systems that they may not really understand ("Ahh, it's just 1/4" of aluminum, how much could it matter?").
As far as "I will have to look into the bogart wheels, if there's something that has a good look to it, and needs no caliper mod's to fit n a 15inch size, I may go that route."
I see that in a completely different way. I'd see it as "I'll have to find what fits and pick the best wheel from that group". Again, I really don't see an option of finding a pretty wheel and having to grind the caliper. If you have to grind the caliper, the wheel does not fit. But that is just how I (and many others) see it.
This was not meant to be a lecture. I just don't understand how people can be so quick to weaken structural parts of a brake caliper. A failure could be catastrophic. Road racing, we can "spread" these calipers from heat. They actually bend open. This is with no material removed from them at all. So, they are not exactly "strong enough" as is.
Be safe!
06-04-2004, 11:46 AM
#7
O.K., I agree that milling calipers will increase the possibility of a failure, I won't argue that, and I also agree that making the brakes a small diameter is not a good idea either, this will definately decrease stopping power. Brake weight, or weight reduction, will NOT increase stopping distance, it will if anything, lessen it. That being said, maybe someone could look into a new design caliper that would clear most 15 inch wheels. I know that the stock brakes on an older mustang rear axle clear weld's and stop with no issues, maybe we could look at that and see what's different. Maybe not adapt it to our cars, but possible have a something made that will clear. Nobody can tell me that there can't be something that will be adequate for stopping the car from a 140+ pass in a reasonable distance and fit under a 15 inch rim. Ford seemed to figure out how to do it. I'm not looking to drive around with no brakes, or kill anyone, I'm just looking for a way to put a smaller rim on the car then what the factory offered.
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06-04-2004, 12:09 PM
#8
Trackbird,
Good detailed response. There are other brake options that make it easier to run drag rims. That option is drag brakes. They work VERY well, though not recommended for street use as heat dissipation is lessened to the construction of the rotors. They actually stop VERY well, though they do not heat cyle well.
I see guys complaining about the current cars brakes (which I feel is very good for a stock setup). Older mustangs braking is poor in comparison to say the least. People don't even like going to an LT1 brake setup which has less stopping power (though fit rims easier due to the caliper overhang and diameter).
Some people are grinding the calipers a good bit to get their drag rims to fit. Some do not want the expense of drag brakes, or want them due to the usability on the street.
For those folks, there really isn't any other option but to grind if they are looking for an economy rim. As mentioned previously, centerline does make rims that fit easier then welds, though they are the heavier then the welds. They do not provide wide rims i.e. 10's due to the backspacing which make them not fit so well. 8 inch rim options (both weld and centerline) are a bit shallow for F-bodies. IMHO 5.5BS on an 8 inch rim is not enough and doesn't center the rims well in our wheel-well. FWIW, stock 8's (depending on the 4th gen years and type of rim vary from 6-6.5.
I do not know of any failures from folks grinding their calipers down (with the exception of having to grind excessively and damaging the calipers). Is this a bad thing, well if the owner assumes the responsibility of deeply grinding down a caliper and they feel ok with it, then so be it.
There are other options, some of them have their downfalls also i.e. spacers. For the guys using spacers you REALLY need longer studs, no way of getting around it...it is not a safe setup as your leaving very little stud contact surface to keep your rim on the car. Sheer stress also goes up with spacers, so use the correct lugs as well as higher tensile studs.
Are our rims free from ever having to file a caliper, NO. I will call it filing not grinding as for the most part, the 1% of guys that need to perform this, has very minor cleaning up to do. Though I personally designed F-body rims to be a direct bolt on with STOCK components, due to tolerance differences from GM, occasionally some folks need to take a file to remove casting lines or a very minor spot on the caliper. Most of the time, this can be performed with a hand file. The reason for this is due to the casting of the caliper, since the calipers are floating, this creates interference.
Anytime you use aftermarket parts, for the most part, even though they are considered a stock upgrade, they are thicker then stock. Once again, anytime you increase the thickness of a brake component, you increase the risk of interference with the inner rim shell.
On a side note, I noticed there is a person that is performing grinding for a fee on the board. If this is something you’re not personally comfortable with, then you may want to give him a call. I'm not certain what his board name is though offhand.
Hope this helps,
Steve
Pres.
Good detailed response. There are other brake options that make it easier to run drag rims. That option is drag brakes. They work VERY well, though not recommended for street use as heat dissipation is lessened to the construction of the rotors. They actually stop VERY well, though they do not heat cyle well.
I see guys complaining about the current cars brakes (which I feel is very good for a stock setup). Older mustangs braking is poor in comparison to say the least. People don't even like going to an LT1 brake setup which has less stopping power (though fit rims easier due to the caliper overhang and diameter).
Some people are grinding the calipers a good bit to get their drag rims to fit. Some do not want the expense of drag brakes, or want them due to the usability on the street.
For those folks, there really isn't any other option but to grind if they are looking for an economy rim. As mentioned previously, centerline does make rims that fit easier then welds, though they are the heavier then the welds. They do not provide wide rims i.e. 10's due to the backspacing which make them not fit so well. 8 inch rim options (both weld and centerline) are a bit shallow for F-bodies. IMHO 5.5BS on an 8 inch rim is not enough and doesn't center the rims well in our wheel-well. FWIW, stock 8's (depending on the 4th gen years and type of rim vary from 6-6.5.
I do not know of any failures from folks grinding their calipers down (with the exception of having to grind excessively and damaging the calipers). Is this a bad thing, well if the owner assumes the responsibility of deeply grinding down a caliper and they feel ok with it, then so be it.
There are other options, some of them have their downfalls also i.e. spacers. For the guys using spacers you REALLY need longer studs, no way of getting around it...it is not a safe setup as your leaving very little stud contact surface to keep your rim on the car. Sheer stress also goes up with spacers, so use the correct lugs as well as higher tensile studs.
Are our rims free from ever having to file a caliper, NO. I will call it filing not grinding as for the most part, the 1% of guys that need to perform this, has very minor cleaning up to do. Though I personally designed F-body rims to be a direct bolt on with STOCK components, due to tolerance differences from GM, occasionally some folks need to take a file to remove casting lines or a very minor spot on the caliper. Most of the time, this can be performed with a hand file. The reason for this is due to the casting of the caliper, since the calipers are floating, this creates interference.
Anytime you use aftermarket parts, for the most part, even though they are considered a stock upgrade, they are thicker then stock. Once again, anytime you increase the thickness of a brake component, you increase the risk of interference with the inner rim shell.
On a side note, I noticed there is a person that is performing grinding for a fee on the board. If this is something you’re not personally comfortable with, then you may want to give him a call. I'm not certain what his board name is though offhand.
Hope this helps,
Steve
Pres.
Last edited by steve10; 06-04-2004 at 12:15 PM.
06-04-2004, 12:41 PM
#9
LS1Tech Co-Founder
iTrader: (34)
I have only heard of two folks in the last five years breaking a caliper from grinding, and in both cases the caliper broke during grinding and not on the track. I'm not going to say that grinding is great and wonderful but folks have been doing it since the advent of disc brakes on cars.
Weld rears require significant grinding if you want to run without a spacer, the caliper is a lot lot smaller. My car brakes like stock. But if I had unlimited funds I would be getting drag brakes or maybe some Bogarts.
Weld rears require significant grinding if you want to run without a spacer, the caliper is a lot lot smaller. My car brakes like stock. But if I had unlimited funds I would be getting drag brakes or maybe some Bogarts.
06-04-2004, 12:56 PM
#10
Originally Posted by JL ws-6
Brake weight, or weight reduction, will NOT increase stopping distance, it will if anything, lessen it.Nobody can tell me that there can't be something that will be adequate for stopping the car from a 140+ pass in a reasonable distance and fit under a 15 inch rim.
If you remove weight from the rotor assembly, you remove some of it's ability to absorb heat. This can increase stopping distances by allowing the rotors to reach a temperature where the pads become less effective (fade). This is the increase I was speaking of. I am not currently at home, but I do have formulas for calculating temperature rise of a rotor based on the weight of the vehicle, the speed of that vehicle and the weight of the rotors on that vehicle. Lighter rotors get hot faster and a stop from 140+ will generate "much heat" indeed.
The same info applies for smaller rotors as it does for drilled rotors (with few differences). This may help explain it:
http://home.columbus.rr.com/trackbir...led_rotors.htm
Have fun!
06-04-2004, 01:03 PM
#11
PSJ, I agree that they will not all "fail instantly". But I do get concerned that they "failed during grinding". Those calipers were "this close" to making it out onto the street (if they had just held together for a few more minutes). Anyway, I tend to error on the side of caution and would hate to see someone hurt or killed by some "innocent grinding". If you are aware of the dangers, then you've made an informed decision (I may not like it, but that is not the point). That is why I mention such things, to allow people to make an informed choice and be able to understand why it failed, if it ever does. You are still free to do as you wish.
Be safe!
Be safe!