Midnight02

iTrader: (8)

^^^ Sound advice that's worth much more than $.02!

For what it's worth, I run stock calipers front and back with aggressive track pads on the front (Hawk DTC-60 or DTC-70) and moderate track pads (HP+) on the rear for my track days. Coupled with sticky R-comp tires, I still have no trouble getting the ABS to engage.

For the street and slowing down from 1/4 mile passes, I'd save the money on a big brake kit and just slap a moderate pad (Hawks HPS or the 5.0 pads) on the front with blank rotors. I can assure you that setup is more than sufficient for that use.

CALL911

iTrader: (17)

My buddy with the Willwoods had better suspension for braking than I did. We both were at 120 MPH and got on the brakes in full. I stopped nearly 200ft before he did. Both cars had ABS. Neither brake system outperformed the tires we had. This is all things I also took into consideration.

We tried some higher speeds. The greater the speed, the more mine outperformed his. The Willwoods are good if you want aftermarket brakes that look like aftermarket brakes on a budget. They are not the ones to choose if you want them for actual aftermarket performance braking.

The CTS-V brakes would outperform the 6 piston Willwoods any day.

79_T/A

iTrader: (1)

Comparison is junk. Unless both cars ran the same pad and tire compounds, and are the same weight, there is no basis for a comparison. Tell you what, I will gladly out stop you from high speeds repeatedly with my junk wilwood calipers. I'll gladly out stop those ctsv brakes too. It's all in the combination of parts and how they work together.

blackandgold

iTrader: (2)

Still no mention of tires, or pads...but if you aren't able to out brake your tires with either of those setups something is wrong anyways. Unless of course you're running like 335 r-compounds all around. We've derailed this thread pretty far off track though.

CALL911

iTrader: (17)

Both of us were running the same pads (Hawk HPS). If you are outperforming the tires, you'll know (my ABS does this at 160 MPH and hard braking, as I can feel and hear the tires being overworked). Both of us are running the same sized tires, same compound (Nitto 555's), and same amount of tread.

Rotors, both same size also.


I felt like this was about as close as even of a comparison as possible (didn't know I had to go into detail to give all the specifics as really the calipers being the only big difference between the two).

blackandgold

iTrader: (2)

The reason you have to go into detail is because you're saying that the 6 pot wilwood calipers can't out perform a set of street tires. I've seen stock calipers and rotors trigger ABS on 555's from under 100mph so something still doesn't seem right, unless the cars weren't being pushed hard enough. I'm not trying to be a dick it just doesn't add up to me. Frankly if he had the 13" rotor 6 pots and you are running 14" vette disks I'd expect the CTS-V calipers to perform better, but if the tires and pad are the same it wouldn't matter because both of them are significantly better than a stockish size 555.

Again and this is somewhat my fault, but the thread is way off topic, it might be worth starting a new one though to get the opinions of people who have the wilwoods to chime in.

CALL911

iTrader: (17)

Opinions from anyone with an upgraded brake system; "they are much better than my stock ones". Opinions will not be quantifiable. Test results and data will.

I literally had almost a perfect matchup between the two systems with the only significant difference being the calipers themselves. This was the criteria YOU even listed as being necessary for a true equal test. Yet "something doesn't t add up" since the brakes didn't out perform the tires? The results are there. Whether you want to accept that not all 6 piston calipers are created with equal stopping ability or not is up to you.

justin455

There was something wrong with his brakes if it took him an extra 200 feet to stop with all those variables you claim being equal or similar. There's only so many things that affect braking performance. He had a better suspension, you guys had the same tires, same size rotors, same brake pads and yet you out braked him that badly with 15 year old 2 piston sliding calipers? Yeah...he probably put his pads in backwards. Shims don't stop well.

blackandgold

iTrader: (2)

Not stock vs Wilwood, CTS-V Brembo (I'm guessing on the brand) vs Wilwood.

Something interesting though, from 60mph a stock LS1 camaro was stopping around 130ft, unfortunately I'm having trouble digging up the R&T article, but here is an older thread that discusses it: Old LS1tech braking info thread

So we can do some quick math using this info Math Stuff The important take away here is that stopping distance increases as the square of velocity, we need to fudge our numbers a bit to line up with the R&T test so basically what we come up with is (and of course ignoring reaction time):

(stopping distance) = ((car speed)^2)/27.7

So in CALL911's test from 120mph a car with stock brakes should stop in around 520 feet. This is of course ignoring the reaction time of the driver. 200 feet is almost 40% of that and honestly I'd be in shock if the CTS-V calipers had a 40% improvement over the stock equipment let alone over Wilwoods with a 14" rotor. I'll take some time at lunch to dig up the match on how a tire's contact patch and tread-wear rating impacts this as well.



Bigger caliper and rotor = bigger pad = more contact = better braking, assuming the same clamping pressure per unit of measurement. Whether or not you're getting more clamping force from your caliper or not is dependent on the design of the caliper, i.e. if it requires 75% of the fluid that the stockers do you'll see an increase in clamping force. I would hope a well designed 4 piston or 6 piston caliper should be more efficient than our 15 year old ls1 calipers, although there are plenty of manufacturers that prove aftermarket isn't always better. But for the sake of argument if you have to get up to 160mph to trigger the abs on a set of stock tires your CTSV calipers are junk too though...

CALL911

iTrader: (17)

Where are you getting 15 year old 2 piston brakes from? Mine were Baer brakes that were purchased within a year or so the same time he bought his Willwoods.

Are you reading carefully? I don't have CTS-V brakes. I said I believe CTS-V brakes would outperform Willwood brakes. I have Baer brakes.

blackandgold

iTrader: (2)

I actually don't see where you specified that my bad if I missed it. I honed in on your comparison in the quoted post above.

CALL911

iTrader: (17)

Its all good. I did make that mention that I thought CTS-V brakes would outperform the Willwoods, but did not say that I had them, but I can see where it could get confusing.

79_T/A

iTrader: (1)

Certainly makes the comparison more interesting. 200 feet is a huge difference. Do you know what model calipers he uses? I will be the first to admit Wilwood makes some junk, but they also make some products that work very well. I'm inclined to think there is a mechanical issue with his braking system. The 2 cars should be somewhat close in braking distance.

Corvett z07

iTrader: (2)

There we go! I may have instigated this argument but hey, some good info has been set down here as well.

Blindly saying that Wilwood is junk and your 2 pot BAER setup stops TONS better than a 6 pot Wilwood setup made me think that the comparison was just a quick test just because you could do it. Now that you laid out some good comparison data between the 2 cars makes the brake test more viable and more convincing now, so thank you

CALL911

iTrader: (17)

Agreed, 200 ft is a very large difference. I used to think that the cheaper price Wilwood offers over my Baers were a value. After that, it made me go back to the same saying that is true for most of the performance parts out there; "you get what you pay for". Wilwood no doubt offers better performance than stock F-body systems, but they are not the brakes you want if you want the best caliper available on the market for stopping power.

He had the "Narrow SL6" 6 piston calipers from Wilwood. I had Baer Claw Track plus 2 piston at that time (I have since upgraded to Baer 6P calipers).

blackandgold

iTrader: (2)

Still seems weird that from 120mph neither of you was outbraking your tires though especially with that huge of an improvement.

CALL911

iTrader: (17)

Again, hot sticky surface vs cold asphalt surface. Brakes, tires, traction all react different in different atmospheric conditions.

CamaroWhoopAss

iTrader: (1)

Dammmit, just bleed ur brakes! Lmao....