Opinions needed
11-07-2017, 11:35 AM
#41
Yes. Why don't I like them? Because it's not necessary. Period. Now if you want to run the car stiffer than you need to I guess that's your call.
https://youtu.be/kES9T0tTYEc I picked this particular video for a simple reason. You can see the horizon, how floppy does that look? And it's on Hoosier's, not low grip street tires.
In fact my car, the one in this video... came with PENSKE's (which I also sell if you want, others here don't) and 1000 fronts on it. I drove it, I raced it. And I did so in part so I could assess it vs. my stuff. And I did that late last year, AND I still have those parts if I want to mess with them more in the future. Anyway, isn't that what you want from your setup guy?
Yes, my springs aren't super stiff. Yes, I like them the way they are. It's easy for those folks newer to come in and say they have a better product, and folks are inclined to listen because "NEW". And there are times you can improve something of course. You seem to imply that I am telling folks things to suit my spring setup. Couldn't be further from the truth.
It'd be easy to follow the "must be stiff to work" bandwagon, and some do that. I don't agree that is the case, but of course should someone want to do that with my coil-overs, we can if you so choose and there is plenty of damping in the shocks to control higher rates.
https://youtu.be/kES9T0tTYEc I picked this particular video for a simple reason. You can see the horizon, how floppy does that look? And it's on Hoosier's, not low grip street tires.
In fact my car, the one in this video... came with PENSKE's (which I also sell if you want, others here don't) and 1000 fronts on it. I drove it, I raced it. And I did so in part so I could assess it vs. my stuff. And I did that late last year, AND I still have those parts if I want to mess with them more in the future. Anyway, isn't that what you want from your setup guy?
Yes, my springs aren't super stiff. Yes, I like them the way they are. It's easy for those folks newer to come in and say they have a better product, and folks are inclined to listen because "NEW". And there are times you can improve something of course. You seem to imply that I am telling folks things to suit my spring setup. Couldn't be further from the truth.
It'd be easy to follow the "must be stiff to work" bandwagon, and some do that. I don't agree that is the case, but of course should someone want to do that with my coil-overs, we can if you so choose and there is plenty of damping in the shocks to control higher rates.
Obviously there are things NOT to do with suspension setups which can hinder performance as well as things NOT to do as a driver. It would be great to see a back to back runs of the same course, same day, same driver and soft vs stiff setups. I realize this is near impossible, but this would show if one setup "works better", but you would still have the driver more comfortable with a certain setup.
In the end, I'm not arguing one is better than the other because there is no way to systematically prove JUST the spring rate variable is better or worse without a ton of effort. I'm not downplaying your past successes, simply discussing both sides of the story.
11-07-2017, 02:14 PM
#42
Stiffer cars make less mechanical grip unless there is another force acting on them, like aero where you need the underbody and tunnels, or splitters not move around. But we aren't running aero cars, right?
How do you validate things? Here I have supplied you video. You can watch what I do in the car. Nothing strange to make my "soft" setup work. You can look up my history, or just ask me. I don't know really what else I can do to convince you that my stuff works. What I have done is FAR more than others have done, but yet I have to defend my work it seems, and that is strange to me.
You can put someone in the best car ever, and if they can't drive it, well it won't win, will it? Yes, I am a pretty proven and fast driver, and by the way those are traits you need to do good setup work. And why I am paid to test things for others, including tire companies.
My validation are wins I have in the past? Well, no... because I won two more National titles this year too. One in my Corvette, and one in a 330Ci BMW I have worked on hard, and that is not stock.
And I spend a lot of my time fixing the mistakes others have made in setup, trying to do things with the car to band-aid driving mistakes. But you seem to imply that I'm doing something odd to cover my driving mistakes. You are sorely mistaken if that is the case.
Here's the long and short of it. In situations where a race team, for instance, has more than one car. They are never setup exactly the same because the driver's play with them to get what they want from them (and I think that is what you are trying to say). BUT, and notice the caps.... in the end if that happens and one guy does better than the other, or the rest of the team, then I think you can see one way works better. And that's why big teams often run multiple cars. More chance to test, and try things, and when one works you move everyone to the baseline that is proven to work better, be faster, or be the same speed but easier to drive.
How do you validate things? Here I have supplied you video. You can watch what I do in the car. Nothing strange to make my "soft" setup work. You can look up my history, or just ask me. I don't know really what else I can do to convince you that my stuff works. What I have done is FAR more than others have done, but yet I have to defend my work it seems, and that is strange to me.
You can put someone in the best car ever, and if they can't drive it, well it won't win, will it? Yes, I am a pretty proven and fast driver, and by the way those are traits you need to do good setup work. And why I am paid to test things for others, including tire companies.
My validation are wins I have in the past? Well, no... because I won two more National titles this year too. One in my Corvette, and one in a 330Ci BMW I have worked on hard, and that is not stock.
And I spend a lot of my time fixing the mistakes others have made in setup, trying to do things with the car to band-aid driving mistakes. But you seem to imply that I'm doing something odd to cover my driving mistakes. You are sorely mistaken if that is the case.
Here's the long and short of it. In situations where a race team, for instance, has more than one car. They are never setup exactly the same because the driver's play with them to get what they want from them (and I think that is what you are trying to say). BUT, and notice the caps.... in the end if that happens and one guy does better than the other, or the rest of the team, then I think you can see one way works better. And that's why big teams often run multiple cars. More chance to test, and try things, and when one works you move everyone to the baseline that is proven to work better, be faster, or be the same speed but easier to drive.
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11-07-2017, 02:30 PM
#43
TECH Addict
FWIW ,, I agree with Sam, I've fixed a lot of erratic lap times by softening cars up a little,,
the degree of stiffness any chassis can handle limits how hard you can push a stock tub.
8 point or 10 or 12 point cage, chassis stiffening etc matters a lot. Just like running slicks without the right chassis prep In road racing = waste of money. (I usually use solid metal bushings on a car with slicks and upgrade all the pickup points.. )
I typically (on a completely new build) start just slightly firmer than stock and increase the rate till the car hits neutral handling,, maybe with just a hint of oversteer (thats my style may not be everybody's) I worked on a turbo S-12 years back we went through 12 full sets of springs to get it dead on, after that we led class until they kicked us out because of our mighty 1.8 liter turbo.. LOL.. We were using H&R race coil over conversions..
the degree of stiffness any chassis can handle limits how hard you can push a stock tub.
8 point or 10 or 12 point cage, chassis stiffening etc matters a lot. Just like running slicks without the right chassis prep In road racing = waste of money. (I usually use solid metal bushings on a car with slicks and upgrade all the pickup points.. )
I typically (on a completely new build) start just slightly firmer than stock and increase the rate till the car hits neutral handling,, maybe with just a hint of oversteer (thats my style may not be everybody's) I worked on a turbo S-12 years back we went through 12 full sets of springs to get it dead on, after that we led class until they kicked us out because of our mighty 1.8 liter turbo.. LOL.. We were using H&R race coil over conversions..
11-08-2017, 08:46 PM
#44
Thank you for your input pdx.
I go about my tuning in much the same way, work bottom up. That doesn't work for things like say, camshafts, those are a lot more involved to change, and you can't really do good back to back testing.
And that testing is worth a LOT.
I can pretty safely say that I have used more setups than anyone else here. I have owned a lot of cars, and shocks. Hell, just what I own right now: Koni singles, Koni Doubles, Penske, Strano/UMI/Afco, ISC coil-overs, Suspension Techniques coil-overs, and a set of Bilstein's. That's just what I have *at this moment* on various vehicles.
I go about my tuning in much the same way, work bottom up. That doesn't work for things like say, camshafts, those are a lot more involved to change, and you can't really do good back to back testing.
And that testing is worth a LOT.
I can pretty safely say that I have used more setups than anyone else here. I have owned a lot of cars, and shocks. Hell, just what I own right now: Koni singles, Koni Doubles, Penske, Strano/UMI/Afco, ISC coil-overs, Suspension Techniques coil-overs, and a set of Bilstein's. That's just what I have *at this moment* on various vehicles.
__________________
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
18 SCCA National Championships in house, many more for our customers prove we know our stuff.Talk is cheap, results matter.
Check out our KONI prices, our Master Cylinder Brace, and new Xtracker Hub/wheel bearing upgrade kits!
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
18 SCCA National Championships in house, many more for our customers prove we know our stuff.Talk is cheap, results matter.
Check out our KONI prices, our Master Cylinder Brace, and new Xtracker Hub/wheel bearing upgrade kits!
11-09-2017, 07:37 AM
#45
Stiffer cars make less mechanical grip unless there is another force acting on them, like aero where you need the underbody and tunnels, or splitters not move around. But we aren't running aero cars, right?
How do you validate things? Here I have supplied you video. You can watch what I do in the car. Nothing strange to make my "soft" setup work. You can look up my history, or just ask me. I don't know really what else I can do to convince you that my stuff works. What I have done is FAR more than others have done, but yet I have to defend my work it seems, and that is strange to me.
You can put someone in the best car ever, and if they can't drive it, well it won't win, will it? Yes, I am a pretty proven and fast driver, and by the way those are traits you need to do good setup work. And why I am paid to test things for others, including tire companies.
My validation are wins I have in the past? Well, no... because I won two more National titles this year too. One in my Corvette, and one in a 330Ci BMW I have worked on hard, and that is not stock.
And I spend a lot of my time fixing the mistakes others have made in setup, trying to do things with the car to band-aid driving mistakes. But you seem to imply that I'm doing something odd to cover my driving mistakes. You are sorely mistaken if that is the case.
Here's the long and short of it. In situations where a race team, for instance, has more than one car. They are never setup exactly the same because the driver's play with them to get what they want from them (and I think that is what you are trying to say). BUT, and notice the caps.... in the end if that happens and one guy does better than the other, or the rest of the team, then I think you can see one way works better. And that's why big teams often run multiple cars. More chance to test, and try things, and when one works you move everyone to the baseline that is proven to work better, be faster, or be the same speed but easier to drive.
How do you validate things? Here I have supplied you video. You can watch what I do in the car. Nothing strange to make my "soft" setup work. You can look up my history, or just ask me. I don't know really what else I can do to convince you that my stuff works. What I have done is FAR more than others have done, but yet I have to defend my work it seems, and that is strange to me.
You can put someone in the best car ever, and if they can't drive it, well it won't win, will it? Yes, I am a pretty proven and fast driver, and by the way those are traits you need to do good setup work. And why I am paid to test things for others, including tire companies.
My validation are wins I have in the past? Well, no... because I won two more National titles this year too. One in my Corvette, and one in a 330Ci BMW I have worked on hard, and that is not stock.
And I spend a lot of my time fixing the mistakes others have made in setup, trying to do things with the car to band-aid driving mistakes. But you seem to imply that I'm doing something odd to cover my driving mistakes. You are sorely mistaken if that is the case.
Here's the long and short of it. In situations where a race team, for instance, has more than one car. They are never setup exactly the same because the driver's play with them to get what they want from them (and I think that is what you are trying to say). BUT, and notice the caps.... in the end if that happens and one guy does better than the other, or the rest of the team, then I think you can see one way works better. And that's why big teams often run multiple cars. More chance to test, and try things, and when one works you move everyone to the baseline that is proven to work better, be faster, or be the same speed but easier to drive.
I'm simply asking for more explanation on why you think a softer setup works better (which you did in your first paragraph... so thank you). It's hard to question you since you always get so defensive about things, and I can see how it gets annoying since you "always have to defend yourself". I'm not out to "get" you.
Have you been able to run your car on a softer setup then return to the same track and run it with a stiffer setup? What was the lap time differences? (Again, NOT challenging you, simply curious about quantifying different suspension setups). Some people don't take things at face value and like to know a little more details.
What would be a fun experiment is to attach sensors to the car and collect data to see cornering G's and speeds with different suspension combos. Yes I'm an engineer, yes I like to see data, yes one could simply boil it down to lap times but it doesn't show WHY.
Last edited by smitty2919; 11-09-2017 at 07:53 AM.
11-09-2017, 12:07 PM
#46
If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there to hear it, does it make a noise?
Look, I get what you are asking and it's something engineers hate, when I tell them you cannot quantify everything. Stop being hypothetical and deal with the reality of things. I know that is sometimes tough, but that's the thing that has to happen. Engineering is great to point, but only a point. And it's not perfect, engineers make mistakes. They find things that don't add up, and how do they do that? By testing.
And I test, a lot.
" If I beat you on track lap times with a similar powered Fbody on the same tire brand/size and relatively same suspension (bars/watts link etc) but I'm running 850/250 springs, is my car set up better, or am I a better driver? Or am I a worse driver than you but the setup covers up some things?" Well, problem one with your scenario, and I'd think an engineer would understand this, is you just said "relatively same suspension". Not the same. Then there is the fact cars are inherently not exactly they same. Does one make more power? Are the bushings exactly the same age, exactly the same alignment? Pressures set with the same gauge, wheels the same weight, etc, etc, etc.
Car setup for me means I can trust it. It's not trying to kill me. It can deal with bumps in the road, etc. And you keep ignoring the fact that I showed you video, from in the car with the horizon where you can see it's not rolling all over. So I'll ask again. Why make it stiffer?
Speaking frankly, I go through this all the time, almost constantly. You are not asking anything novel, or new. And my responses don't change. As for you asking me, why aren't you asking others? I'm just curious, why am I the one who has to defend my thinking and results when, well... I have tangible results? I'm genuinely curious about that.
YES!!!!!!!!!! I have run my car back to back stiffer and softer. And it's softer so what do that tell you? Do you think I want to make my car slower?
And I have data. Most every autocross run I make as well as track laps I run my SoloStorm which can do a lot, and I look at Lateral, Longitudinal G's, Speed, and combined G traces. And I can overlap up to 4 passes at a time.
Why can't be quantified in the way you want. It has to do with all the stuff I mentioned before and a LOT more. If it was that simple to quantify it, you wouldn't have F1 cars running Mercedes and Ferrari engines being mid or back of the pack when others with the same engines are not. They are all pouring TENS OF MILLIONS of dollars into their stuff. And then sometimes one will have a better race at one track. Or one driver will, and then the other driver is better at the next. Williams can be top 10 one weekend and not get out Q1 the next.
Understand that you can't quantify everything. And I can't explain everything. And yes, driving has a lot to do with it. And I have known some really good drivers who were terrible at knowing anything about the car or setting it up. Maybe you think that's me. And that's ok. except again, video and results. And when I say results. Not just mine. I have done a whole lot of other cars for other folks that have also won National Championships.
Look, I get what you are asking and it's something engineers hate, when I tell them you cannot quantify everything. Stop being hypothetical and deal with the reality of things. I know that is sometimes tough, but that's the thing that has to happen. Engineering is great to point, but only a point. And it's not perfect, engineers make mistakes. They find things that don't add up, and how do they do that? By testing.
And I test, a lot.
" If I beat you on track lap times with a similar powered Fbody on the same tire brand/size and relatively same suspension (bars/watts link etc) but I'm running 850/250 springs, is my car set up better, or am I a better driver? Or am I a worse driver than you but the setup covers up some things?" Well, problem one with your scenario, and I'd think an engineer would understand this, is you just said "relatively same suspension". Not the same. Then there is the fact cars are inherently not exactly they same. Does one make more power? Are the bushings exactly the same age, exactly the same alignment? Pressures set with the same gauge, wheels the same weight, etc, etc, etc.
Car setup for me means I can trust it. It's not trying to kill me. It can deal with bumps in the road, etc. And you keep ignoring the fact that I showed you video, from in the car with the horizon where you can see it's not rolling all over. So I'll ask again. Why make it stiffer?
Speaking frankly, I go through this all the time, almost constantly. You are not asking anything novel, or new. And my responses don't change. As for you asking me, why aren't you asking others? I'm just curious, why am I the one who has to defend my thinking and results when, well... I have tangible results? I'm genuinely curious about that.
YES!!!!!!!!!! I have run my car back to back stiffer and softer. And it's softer so what do that tell you? Do you think I want to make my car slower?
And I have data. Most every autocross run I make as well as track laps I run my SoloStorm which can do a lot, and I look at Lateral, Longitudinal G's, Speed, and combined G traces. And I can overlap up to 4 passes at a time.
Why can't be quantified in the way you want. It has to do with all the stuff I mentioned before and a LOT more. If it was that simple to quantify it, you wouldn't have F1 cars running Mercedes and Ferrari engines being mid or back of the pack when others with the same engines are not. They are all pouring TENS OF MILLIONS of dollars into their stuff. And then sometimes one will have a better race at one track. Or one driver will, and then the other driver is better at the next. Williams can be top 10 one weekend and not get out Q1 the next.
Understand that you can't quantify everything. And I can't explain everything. And yes, driving has a lot to do with it. And I have known some really good drivers who were terrible at knowing anything about the car or setting it up. Maybe you think that's me. And that's ok. except again, video and results. And when I say results. Not just mine. I have done a whole lot of other cars for other folks that have also won National Championships.
__________________
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
18 SCCA National Championships in house, many more for our customers prove we know our stuff.Talk is cheap, results matter.
Check out our KONI prices, our Master Cylinder Brace, and new Xtracker Hub/wheel bearing upgrade kits!
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
18 SCCA National Championships in house, many more for our customers prove we know our stuff.Talk is cheap, results matter.
Check out our KONI prices, our Master Cylinder Brace, and new Xtracker Hub/wheel bearing upgrade kits!
