Doesn't seem like there are any posts whatsoever on using F-bodies for momentum driving and/or mountain driving, and I even tried Google searching in general and on the site specifically and nothing. A few months ago I made a post asking about Watt's links and instead of buying parts immediately I kept driving it as it is to see what I really wanted to do with the car, and now it's reached a point I've actually put it up for sale. Though as I've been looking around at what's out there in a similar price range I'm somewhat reminded why I went with the F-body to begin with, anything else is a major trade off in power albeit for better handling and IRS. Which anyone that does mountain driving knows power is kind of important for climbing said mountains. If I sold the Firebird I'd be looking into something like the SW20 MR2 non-turbo or NA8/NB2 Miata, possibly a SC300.

Anyhow I'm on the edge about selling it and getting one of the aforementioned. I know the F-body can be made to do exceptional on a road course or autocross, just look at Sam Strano(actually what swayed me into getting a F-body) for example, and can be setup for doing canyon carving fairly well. Then here recently I've read where two members here with all out suspension setups said that even though the F-body can be made to handle well if handling is your top concern to just get something else, and that no matter what you do you'll never escape the fact it has a solid axle. It was actually reading that that pushed me over into deciding to sell it, like if they have these all out handling F-bodies and said that then maybe I shouldn't bother wasting my time or money trying.

Am I wrong in my thinking? I guess what I'm asking is can the F-body be made into a good momentum car for mountain driving, or should I just sell it and get something else? I can make the car do what I want by manhandling it, but it just doesn't feel great or instill confidence doing it. I followed my brother in his Genesis Coupe that has coil-overs through a mountain road and I was able to keep up though it was kind of sketchy with the back of the car dancing around the entire time, I was feeling pretty good about it until he told me he was going slow(even though we were over the limit) so that I wouldn't fall behind... I love the power, but that doesn't mean much to me if the handling will never be where I want it. I've been beating myself up researching cars like crazy for over a month now, between potential prospects and the F-body itself. I still love the Firebird, but it feels and seems like it'll never do what I want it to do and it's just frustrating. Like if I'm being honest my Celica with way crappier tires(Sumic all season vs BFG Sport COMP-2) and skinnier wheels(5.5" vs 9.5") handled a lot better. So you might see where I'm somewhat frustrated in that regard, sure the Celica weighs 1,000 pounds less but still... I suppose I'm looking for someone that's already been there and done that with the F-body and preferably has also owned smaller sports cars for perspective, I'd love to keep the Firebird but I don't want to spend a fortune on suspension only to end up still unhappy knowing I could get something like a Miata or MR-2 and knowing I'd like the end results with them. Thanks again for any insight and advice on the matter you can provide.

 

How big is your bank roll? Its a great platform to "play" with. If your wanting hard core the look elsewhere and open your check book!

 

Well if I had a lot of money I'd just get into a Corvette or a 911 etc... but I don't sadly. I still like the car despite the shortcomings, it's a good car but it just feels like the rear suspension is holding the rest of the car back. I just want to be able to go through all the nice mountain and back roads around here and give my brother a run for his money without it feeling like the back of the car is going to kick out at any moment. I mean I know I won't be able to outdo the Genesis, but I want to be able to keep up without him having to hold back.

 

As a fairly regular, semi-serious autocross competitor, I can tell you that with just a few mods to limit body roll, and a good set of tires, ANY car can be pretty fast through the twisties. IRS suspensions gain advantage over straight axle suspensions on bumpy roads, and on cars that lean a lot. The ability to dial in more negative camber really helps if your car is leaning 5 degrees. So if we assume you are on fairly smooth roads.....put some stiff springs and bars on the F-body and get rid of the lean. If the car isn't leaning, a 305 tire has enough rubber on the road to make you start thinking about better seats.
After you reach this level of grip, it is all about you and how fast you are willing to drive.

 

Of course it doesn't feel great...IT'S STOCK!! Just buy Strano's springs, shocks and bars. Then a watts or lowered phb with the right wheels and tires. If you can't keep up with a freakin' Genesis after that, it's you, not the car. You can't compare a stock suspension to something with coilovers. This stuff has been beaten to death around here.

 

That's the biggest problem is all of the roads around here are usually tarred gravel, so they're very rough and irregular with ruts and ridges throughout. On perfectly smooth pavement it's no so much of an issue with the rear dancing around. Body roll actually isn't that bad, but I suspect the previous owner changed the sways after measuring them. I already put on 17x9.5 with 275/40 BFG Sport COMP-2 all the way around as a first step and that helped tremendously in all aspects.

Lots of cars feel great stock though. Also I wasn't comparing it to the Genesis in that sense, that'd just be futile, but I was just using that as a story/baseline. My car practically stock I was able to keep up with his heavily modified Genesis over the speed limit on a mountain road, which I was feeling good about until he said he was taking it easy. So that's where part of me thinks, "Well with aftermarket suspension I should be able to keep up with him going all out." but then I remember how my Celica was and with a far inferior rim/tire setup it was a lot better. So I'm just doubting if I should bother with the Firebird when I know something like a MR2 or Miata will give me the desired result in the end.

 

What do they measure at? I thought I remember you saying you had something like 32mm front, 22mm rear which would explain more why you feel like the rear wants to come around on you.

Unfortunately a stock base(non-1LE or bilstien equipped) 4th gen does not, and yours has 100,000 miles on stock parts. Your bushings are probably worn out and you have decarbon shocks which belong on a truck. You basically have a very very poor setup at best, but this says a lot if you think it does decent because with proper suspension you will be blown away then.

You will have to decide what you feel like and what you want to spend. You can spend a little on the firebird, keep the awesome power and looks and be the underdog with surprisingly good handling when setup right. Or you can sell it and get a miata that has the styling of a bar of soap and the power to go along with it but is setup better for handling to begin with. second gen MR2s are pretty awesome but nice, turbo cars are rare and sometimes kinda expensive of what they are around here at least.
Id say get good shocks and replace any worn bushings (with stock rubber replacements) and try that out. Worst case scenario you can can always put stock parts back on the car and sell it and sell the aftermarket parts separately to get some money back.

 

32mm front 21mm rear, and the shocks were replaced with KYB GR-2 so at least it's not DeCarbons. I had KYB GR-2 on the Celica and they were decent enough, no KONI or Tokico by any means but they didn't bottom out or bounce.

I'm at the point where I'm thinking either buy Strano or UMI springs with KONI shocks in addition to bushings to give it a better chance, or just give up and sell it for something else. I just have serious doubts coming from smaller cars with IRS, even though I know on a road course a solid axle can perform fine. I think if the roads were better I wouldn't have as big of an issue, but the surfaces are terrible and really make a SRA rear its ugly head.

Also another thing while I'm thinking about it, and I can't seem to find any information on it. Does the rear axle on fourth gens have some toe in and negative camber built into it from the factory? Because mine has some slight toe in and negative camber, was wondering if that was a factory deal or if the previous owner had the axle reshaped.

 

Mine has 0.1 degrees of negative camber both sides and I think just a C hair of toe-in but I can't remember that one for sure.

 

Sounds like you just need to sell it and move to tour IRS whatever.

 

The bar combination is ill advised, too much rear vs. not enough front. Upgrade the front. Put good shocks on, put good springs on, put a Watts link on. The last thing is a big key for undulating roads and is how you make a solid axle car really work.

The PHB, any PHB is asymmetric. The body and it's mass moves left and right as it moves up and down, which doesn't help fell or stability.

 

Most any time, as long as I'm around and know you are coming, folks can stop by and we can take a ride in my car. And I don't live where it's just flat and there are no corners.

It's a big reason I bought another one of these, not just to have it but as a demonstrator.

 

Plus one on all the above. In fact, I actually removed my rear sway bar entirely.

That said, I take a bit of morbid pleasure in seeing how hard I can press crap can rental cars on mountain roads. Best one so far: Chevy Malibu. Worst (by far): Mitsubishi Lancer base.

 

To be honest, having had KYB GR-2 shocks myself, while they are a step up from the stock DeCrapons, they are still far from great, and don't age particularly well. They are just not a good match for this platform. Others they seem to do better on.

 

I'll have to measure it on a rack to be exact, but it looks like 1/32" of toe in and around -0.5º of camber on the rear. It was enough to catch my eye anyway and make me question since I was under the assumption a solid axle would be zeroed out.

From what I could find the sway bar setup is off a '93 1LE that also used the same base V8 springs, then later years 1LE had stiffer springs and went to a smaller rear bar? I'm not sure but I think the previous owner may have used the car for some kind of stock class autocross? Everything on the car was stock/stock replacement when I got it which was kind of odd given the level of attention he gave the car, and for someone that owned it for so long as an enthusiast. If I was in the Pennsylvania area I'd definitely arrange something with you Mr. Strano, since I think that'd give me a goal or vision of what my car could be. I WISH I could find someone near me with some handling suspension to ride along with, but seems everyone around me only drag races their F-body...

Yeah the KYB are ok, they're definitely a lot better than the DeCarbons though. My father's same year Z28 het got as a relatively new car had DeCarbons and it was bouncy and bottomed out all the time. At least mine isn't bouncy or doesn't bottom out, but it does seem the damping leaves much to be desired and especially in regards to controlling the solid axle.

Though speaking of my father's Z28 I did get to drive it a few times and my car feels A LOT better than what his did, really the only difference I can think of would be the shocks, sways, and rims/tires. Well that and his was an automatic T-top, but none of that has an effect on handling feel or capability. I love the car, I guess I just have a lot of hesitation and stigma around the solid axle. It's like even though I know a solid axle can be made to handle I know that it'll still never be ideal or optimum for what I like to use my car for. Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

 

You made the same whining thread last year and got advice from the top vendors for road racing and auto-x for fbodies in the US/world... did you investigate their suggestions?

https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspensio...l#post19448219

Comparing a Miata, a Hyundai, and/or a Celica to an a worn out f-body from 20+ years ago is nonsense... let alone those vehicles' 2017 counter parts... their completely different class of vehicles all together

Saying you don't have and money but if so you'd buy a corvette or 911 in the next breathe... doesn't make sense. People are suggesting $100's or $1,000-$2,000 in parts... and you'd be comparable to a corvette or 911 that is $10,000's more.

What really matters is the driver... you could have a damn Pagani and if they person driving it is a goof, your car with Danny Popp behind the wheel would destroy it.

In review, add a few parts... see what happens, keep goin... it's a proven platform if you want it. If you want a Miata or a MR2 that's fine too... but any of those will never be the other one

 

I did but road racing and autocross usually have perfect road surfaces, or road racing does anyway, and even though I like to participate in those the other 95% of my fun driving is on mountain and back roads with FAR from ideal road surfaces. I think it just comes down to solid axles and bad roads where an IRS gains the biggest advantage. The Celica was only 2-3 years ago and it was a '95 model with almost twice the mileage on it as the Firebird, so I think it's a fair enough comparison in that regard. Yes the Celica is a sports compact and the Firebird is a sports muscle car thing, but still. It's just based on all the feedback and research I'm under the impression that I'll need to do all the following in one fatal swoop:
Strano or UMI springs
KONI shocks
Fays2 or MWC Watt's link
Strano 35mm front sway bar

Springs and shocks together only make sense to do at once, well then you need to correct the rear roll center and axle placement and the only way to do that is an adjustable PHB or Watt's link and I know I don't want a PHB setup, well then since my sway bar setup was for a one year 1LE with base V8 springs I'll then need to change the front bar after the new springs. So around $1,500-2000 to gamble on rather or not that'll make the car do what I want when I can take that $1,500-2,000 and sell my car then use all that towards a MR2 or Miata and KNOW it'll do what I want.

Of course reading that out loud it seems like the easy solution is just sell the Firebird, but it's not that easy since aside from the rear suspension I really like the car. Well that and I wanted a F-body EXACTLY like the one I have now for years; Yeah I'm weird and wanted a LT-1 hardtop Formula over a LS-1 T-top Trans Am. I just wish there was someone nearby with the suspension pieces I want to do so then I can know definitively rather or not I should bother throwing $1,500-2000 down a hole never to see it again. I know I'm the only one that can make that decision ultimately, but since the aforementioned won't happen it'd be nice to have a frame of reference from someone that's been there done that. Surely I'm not the only person in the world to like and own both Japanese sports cars and American muscle cars.

 

I guess basically I want to know if I can make the Firebird handle like and feel like a sports car despite the solid axle, I don't want it to be a muscle car I want it to be a sports car. Right or wrong, realistic or fantasy; That's what it boils down to. To me as the car is it straddles the line between a muscle car and a sports car, it's not quite fully one way or the other so can I get it to transition all the way to being a sports car is what I want to know. If so great; I'll get springs, shocks, Watt's link, sway bars, etc... If not I'll sell it and get a MR2. Though it'll take someone that's owned Japanese or European sports cars and modified the F-body to answer this. I don't know why this didn't occur to me until just now, but that's truly the answer I'm seeking.

 

As a general rule, sports cars aren't fast, they are nimble. Supercars aren't nimble, but they sure are fast. It is hard to beat horsepower with nimble on the open road. GT coupes like the Firebird and the Genesis Coupe fall somewhere in the middle.

https://www.motorsportreg.com/events...nnessee-128814
Go here and try to ride along in all the cars that interest you.

 

I think that's my problem is I want it all in one vehicle; power with handling capability and good feel. Though if I could only pick two it'd be handling capability and feel, I can do without power. My Celica and Miata were far from powerful, but once you're up to speed it really doesn't matter. Though with the Miata you can always turbocharge or supercharge it, and the MR2 can be 2GR-FE or 4th gen 3S-GTE swapped.

Thanks I'll have to check that out, I have a cousin in Madison county that does autocross events all the time so she'll probably be there. Will have to ask her.