BMR Vrs Spohn Vrs UMI
09-27-2004, 11:19 AM
#21
Originally Posted by mitchntx
I run mine on the street with a Borla and a full block off plate. All exhaust goes through the muffler.
I too had a hard time believing it. I had been through BMR, Hotchkis and Spohn, all with noisy components.
I was talking with Lou concerning my disapointment with them and he guaranteed his didn't rattle ... money back if they did. I tried them and have had no need to look anywhere else since.
It's been my experience that if you hear them, there is something else going on.
Now, not sure he will offer that to anyone else, but he stands behind his products.
I'm a big believer in buying parts one time and not having to worry about it again. After buying speed parts for 30 years, one gets tired of spending money for the same part over and over.
Steve, I'm curious why your assessment should carry so much more weight than other's opinion?
Enlighten us all on your racing lineage ...
I too had a hard time believing it. I had been through BMR, Hotchkis and Spohn, all with noisy components.
I was talking with Lou concerning my disapointment with them and he guaranteed his didn't rattle ... money back if they did. I tried them and have had no need to look anywhere else since.
It's been my experience that if you hear them, there is something else going on.
Now, not sure he will offer that to anyone else, but he stands behind his products.
I'm a big believer in buying parts one time and not having to worry about it again. After buying speed parts for 30 years, one gets tired of spending money for the same part over and over.
Steve, I'm curious why your assessment should carry so much more weight than other's opinion?
Enlighten us all on your racing lineage ...
From the tone of your reply, you were looking to call me out. Consider it noted. I've been called out. Now that that is out of the way, let me get to what I was trying to say:
Take advice from a person that uses their car in a manner that you will use yours. Plain and simple. I would take suspension advice from a person that only uses their car on the streets (like me) rather than from someone that has theirs set up for road racing. That is what I was trying to get at. I'm not trying to discredit you, or bolster my image on here. Hell, look at my post count. Not many people are going to take me seriously just because of that.
If someone is looking for some new LCAs or a PHR for their car, and they use it as a daily driver, I'm gonna recommend poly/poly from now on. It will fit their bill, and they won't have to worry about whether or not a rod end is high quality. If they are gonna use it for track use, I'll send them to someone like you (granted I already know you will recommend LG).
Fair enough?
09-27-2004, 11:23 AM
#22
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Originally Posted by mitchntx
Maybe cheaper would have been more appropriate
But Mitch I do understand your concern because I have read of your past experience with BMR products, so I do understand where you are coming from.
However I feel just because a BMR part has broke doesnt mean all items not made by LG are going to....do a search under UMI or Spohn and let me know how many disappointed customers or broken parts you find?
I have also done my research on Rod ends and you know as well as I do that any rod ends causing a noise are most likely cheap rod ends. Through my searches I have found that both BMR and Spohn at one time had used a cheaper rod end. I now see that they have both wised up and now run QA1 XMR rod ends. one of the best you can get. Both my control arms and adjust. PHB from UMI have Energy Suspension Poly bushings on one end and a 3/4" QA1 XMR rod end on the other. I have experience no harsh ride or noise issues, mostly because I have choosen a product with high quality rod ends, as far as I know LG uses the same ends...
Steve, the problem with your LCA's from Badz are just as stated above, cheap rod ends. You are not the first person who has removed them because of the noise issues. He also uses a 5/8" rod end instead of 3/4" like the others, I never heard of one breaking yet, but just a thought.
09-27-2004, 11:33 AM
#23
Originally Posted by MeentSS02
From the tone of your reply, you were looking to call me out. Consider it noted. I've been called out. Now that that is out of the way, let me get to what I was trying to say:
Fair enough?
Fair enough?
I'm not familiar with you or your experience level. Just trying to figure out what you base your assessments and opinion on. Nothing more than that.
The internet is a funny thing. Calling someone "out" is a dangerous thing. You could have been John Force or Micheal Schumacher.
And please don't assume I'm a jerk. My posts are sometime rather short ... lacking words. That can be misinterpreted.
All any of us can do is post our opinions based upon our personal experience. Unfortunately, some post opinions based upon living vicariously through others.
Having said that ...
boiling down what you've posted has merit. One should assess one's needs and buy accordingly.
But making a broad, blanket assumption, based upon no first hand knowledge, that ALL rod end parts are noisey is just wrong. I'm not calling you out or attempting to belittle you. Just letting you and others reading this know that you CAN have the best of both worlds.
Sometimes it ain't cheap ...
I like to use the analogy of synthetic vs fossil blend oils.
Folks will proclaim synthetic is the best and one is asking for trouble using anything less. Yet they never run the car over 5K and change it every 3K miles. But it's the best.
Yet, proclaim a cheaper suspension part is "good enough" for the way I drive.
Either one needs quality parts or one doesn't ...
09-27-2004, 11:36 AM
#24
Yeah, I was very disappointed in the noise from the BADZ parts, but I just don't feel like putting the money into buying a part with the good rod ends. I tried to be cheap, and I got burned, and it wasn't even what I really needed. I'm so much happier with my Spohn poly/poly pieces now. They work great for what I do with the car.
I just don't want someone to fall into the same trap I did...I can't believe I even considered a part made with rod ends to tell you the truth. This car just gets driven to work and cruises around town on the weekends. What I was thinking, I'll never know...
I just don't want someone to fall into the same trap I did...I can't believe I even considered a part made with rod ends to tell you the truth. This car just gets driven to work and cruises around town on the weekends. What I was thinking, I'll never know...
09-28-2004, 09:36 AM
#25
Originally Posted by MeentSS02
What I was thinking, I'll never know...
It's the same kinda stuff over in the manual tranny section. Everyone says go with Spec 3, and although the Spec 3 is a good choice, many people don't need to go that heavy for their setup and driving style.
09-28-2004, 09:41 AM
#26
Originally Posted by DMNSPD
You were listening to people that said to only go with the rod-ended components because the other stuff is "junk".
It's the same kinda stuff over in the manual tranny section. Everyone says go with Spec 3, and although the Spec 3 is a good choice, many people don't need to go that heavy for their setup and driving style.
It's the same kinda stuff over in the manual tranny section. Everyone says go with Spec 3, and although the Spec 3 is a good choice, many people don't need to go that heavy for their setup and driving style.
09-28-2004, 10:09 AM
#28
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My LG poly/rod end LCAs make no noise on my daily driver. I haven't installed my UMI panhard rod yet, so I can't comment on the noise from that. UMI also uses the QA1 xmr12 so I expect the same.
09-28-2004, 07:00 PM
#29
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If any company uses the same rod end (quality) in the construction of their product, how can 1 (and seemingly only 1) have the market cornered on quiet rod end control arms ? Simple they don't, it's just what one person considers acceptable amounts of noise and what one person doesn't .That is the only difference.
09-28-2004, 07:23 PM
#30
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can anyone answer me this?
I kno i want BMR LCA's, BMR Adj. PHR, debating on sway bars (whats the best for strip street and road course? size? 1LE?) an adjustable torque arm (unsure of what to get any help? gonna run QTP LT's cats and GMMG and eventually to have a Extreme duty T56 from FLP and a 12 bolt rear with the 455 stroker from MTI after some time/this will be my daily driver so i asume i ned tranny mounted) i also plan on Eibach Pro-Kit and QA1 or Bilstein shocks (which one?) SLP Bolt on SFC's
i needa kno all the things in parenthesis...but i would like to kno what type of bushings on the LCA's Sway bars, Torque arm (if it has bushings) for street strip road course
i will be puting over 500 to the wheels more than likely and prolly be hitting 10's wihtout a doubt...so the BMR tranny mounted one says it cant be done under 11.00....whys that and if that would be best how can it be corrected (ive heard tranny mounted is better for daily drivers...)
sorry for length please infomr me as much as possible
I kno i want BMR LCA's, BMR Adj. PHR, debating on sway bars (whats the best for strip street and road course? size? 1LE?) an adjustable torque arm (unsure of what to get any help? gonna run QTP LT's cats and GMMG and eventually to have a Extreme duty T56 from FLP and a 12 bolt rear with the 455 stroker from MTI after some time/this will be my daily driver so i asume i ned tranny mounted) i also plan on Eibach Pro-Kit and QA1 or Bilstein shocks (which one?) SLP Bolt on SFC's
i needa kno all the things in parenthesis...but i would like to kno what type of bushings on the LCA's Sway bars, Torque arm (if it has bushings) for street strip road course
i will be puting over 500 to the wheels more than likely and prolly be hitting 10's wihtout a doubt...so the BMR tranny mounted one says it cant be done under 11.00....whys that and if that would be best how can it be corrected (ive heard tranny mounted is better for daily drivers...)
sorry for length please infomr me as much as possible
09-28-2004, 08:13 PM
#31
Originally Posted by sikws6
If any company uses the same rod end (quality) in the construction of their product, how can 1 (and seemingly only 1) have the market cornered on quiet rod end control arms ? Simple they don't, it's just what one person considers acceptable amounts of noise and what one person doesn't .That is the only difference.
Are you saying all rod ends are equal in quality and only one's tolerence for noise differs?
09-28-2004, 09:38 PM
#32
Originally Posted by mitchntx
Not sure I follow ...
Are you saying all rod ends are equal in quality and only one's tolerence for noise differs?
Are you saying all rod ends are equal in quality and only one's tolerence for noise differs?
09-29-2004, 06:44 AM
#34
But that's the whole point .... the difference in rod ends. Not everyone is using good rod ends.
When a vendor uses quality rod ends, it costs a lot of money. Aurora or QA1 rod ends, the size we use for PHBs and LCAs, cost $40-50 each.
For a PHB, 2 are needed, along with machined tubing, cut to an exact length. All of a sudden a manufacturer has $100 in material alone. Start factoring in labor to assemble, package and ship, the costs associated with warehousing and building a store front ... that could all come to $125 in fixed costs.
Selling them for $150 retail doesn't give a man much profit for his time and effort.
For LCAs, 4 are needed, so a set of LCA's for $200 can't use the "good stuff". A vendor is not gonna sell at a loss.
So, to maximize profits, one must cut costs ... costs one has control over. That's typically the cost of the components.
Look ... I'm sorry some of you were burned and are now soured on the whole concept. While rod ended components are the "high end" of what is "needed", they do have a place on a street driven car, without all the hassles some of you have witnessed.
And if your car is a weekend only cruiser, the need for ANY suspension change is uncalled for. Leave it stock and be mellow ...
When a vendor uses quality rod ends, it costs a lot of money. Aurora or QA1 rod ends, the size we use for PHBs and LCAs, cost $40-50 each.
For a PHB, 2 are needed, along with machined tubing, cut to an exact length. All of a sudden a manufacturer has $100 in material alone. Start factoring in labor to assemble, package and ship, the costs associated with warehousing and building a store front ... that could all come to $125 in fixed costs.
Selling them for $150 retail doesn't give a man much profit for his time and effort.
For LCAs, 4 are needed, so a set of LCA's for $200 can't use the "good stuff". A vendor is not gonna sell at a loss.
So, to maximize profits, one must cut costs ... costs one has control over. That's typically the cost of the components.
Look ... I'm sorry some of you were burned and are now soured on the whole concept. While rod ended components are the "high end" of what is "needed", they do have a place on a street driven car, without all the hassles some of you have witnessed.
And if your car is a weekend only cruiser, the need for ANY suspension change is uncalled for. Leave it stock and be mellow ...
09-29-2004, 07:30 AM
#35
Have you ever thought some companies get better deals than others from their suppliers???
How about this... the guy who sells cheaper with a smaller profit might sell many more than the more expensive company while still making the same profit. Along with that comes more people with your product and repeat customers.
How about this... the guy who sells cheaper with a smaller profit might sell many more than the more expensive company while still making the same profit. Along with that comes more people with your product and repeat customers.
09-29-2004, 07:56 AM
#36
Yes ... I considered it ...
COnsider this, though.
A vendor would have to buy a lot of components to get a significant price break. That would then take a LOT of investment capital ... and that ain't gonna come from selling parts at a 10-20%/unit profit margin at a $200/unit retail price tag.
It really doesn't matter how much you analyze it. The numbers don't lie.
Also consider the platform a vendor is supplying parts for. The F-Body is 4 years out of production. Just how many more F-Bodys are out there that ...
a) haven't been modified and
b) find their way into the hands of someone wanting to modify
The numbers of folks falling in behind you and I into the F-Body market is dwindling fast.
Based upon that market model, a vendor would be seriously bent to invest a large amount of capital into parts for a dead and dying platform.
That is the reason why LS1 F-Body parts are so damned high to begin with ... both supply and demand are dwindling.
COnsider this, though.
A vendor would have to buy a lot of components to get a significant price break. That would then take a LOT of investment capital ... and that ain't gonna come from selling parts at a 10-20%/unit profit margin at a $200/unit retail price tag.
It really doesn't matter how much you analyze it. The numbers don't lie.
Also consider the platform a vendor is supplying parts for. The F-Body is 4 years out of production. Just how many more F-Bodys are out there that ...
a) haven't been modified and
b) find their way into the hands of someone wanting to modify
The numbers of folks falling in behind you and I into the F-Body market is dwindling fast.
Based upon that market model, a vendor would be seriously bent to invest a large amount of capital into parts for a dead and dying platform.
That is the reason why LS1 F-Body parts are so damned high to begin with ... both supply and demand are dwindling.
09-29-2004, 09:40 AM
#37
So, part for part, is UMI as good as the others? . Unless you race to a a significant amount, I don't see where very many of the suspension components will be very noticeable on a mostly street driven vehicle besides noise. I still have a completely stock front and rear suspension and drag race about once a month or so. Now, roadracing or SCCA style autocross, that's probably a completely different story.
Last edited by Redlinez; 09-29-2004 at 10:22 AM.
09-29-2004, 10:54 PM
#38
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I have UMI subframs and control arm brackets. I just so happen to live close enough to them to have these parts installed at there shop, and let me tell you i couldnt be happier with their products. When they come out with new products i will deffinitly purchase what ever they have to offer.
09-30-2004, 07:43 AM
#39
Originally Posted by mitchntx
Yes ... I considered it ...
COnsider this, though.
A vendor would have to buy a lot of components to get a significant price break. That would then take a LOT of investment capital ... and that ain't gonna come from selling parts at a 10-20%/unit profit margin at a $200/unit retail price tag.
It really doesn't matter how much you analyze it. The numbers don't lie.
Also consider the platform a vendor is supplying parts for. The F-Body is 4 years out of production. Just how many more F-Bodys are out there that ...
a) haven't been modified and
b) find their way into the hands of someone wanting to modify
The numbers of folks falling in behind you and I into the F-Body market is dwindling fast.
Based upon that market model, a vendor would be seriously bent to invest a large amount of capital into parts for a dead and dying platform.
That is the reason why LS1 F-Body parts are so damned high to begin with ... both supply and demand are dwindling.
COnsider this, though.
A vendor would have to buy a lot of components to get a significant price break. That would then take a LOT of investment capital ... and that ain't gonna come from selling parts at a 10-20%/unit profit margin at a $200/unit retail price tag.
It really doesn't matter how much you analyze it. The numbers don't lie.
Also consider the platform a vendor is supplying parts for. The F-Body is 4 years out of production. Just how many more F-Bodys are out there that ...
a) haven't been modified and
b) find their way into the hands of someone wanting to modify
The numbers of folks falling in behind you and I into the F-Body market is dwindling fast.
Based upon that market model, a vendor would be seriously bent to invest a large amount of capital into parts for a dead and dying platform.
That is the reason why LS1 F-Body parts are so damned high to begin with ... both supply and demand are dwindling.
Well, I know that your reasoning and what the facts are with UMI are totally different. So the numbers you are posting are simply just YOUR therory of how the company is working. Guess what, you're not not right about them.
Those who don't know what products to go with, I PROMISE that you will NOT be disappointed by UMI products... nor their rod ends
Mitch, you might be experienced with suspension stuff, but that doesn't make you a market analysist. Go collect your check from LG.
09-30-2004, 08:10 AM
#40
Looks like I'll be getting UMI products. Sometimes it works out better when you don't buy certain things due to your budget. I went the bolt on cam power route first. Especially since I'll feel that every time I drive. Just waiting on UMI to email me back.