demonspeed

iTrader: (7)

I run the boxed. I ran the boxed on my 93 GT as well. I just have it in my head that the boxed ones will be a lot stronger than the tubular, but I haven't any facts to back it up.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

The SCCA has a lot of stupid rules..... Do I think SFC's warrant getting bumped out of ESP. HELL NO, especially since they are legal on SN95 Mustangs since the convertible cars came with them factory. Do not assume because the rules move you around, that it actually helps.

As for the jacking of the car on one corner, that's just not smart SFC's or otherwise. What do you expect to happen when you pull up on one heavy corner of a 3400+ pound car??????????? Metal bends folks. Hell there's an M3 I work on a lot, and if you try that stunt you have a hard time opening the doors. And BMW's are stiff too.

demonspeed

iTrader: (7)

Well, I think things have been cleared up, and obviously there are two views on the subject. I *think* I've have good experience with subframe connectors, but who knows. I guess when you have a "Race Car", some ripples in the ¼ don't matter much.

OTOH, have you ever ran weld-on subframe connectors before? If you have, did the ¼ dimple before or after?

Thanks for your time and for the help Sunday.

jdustu

iTrader: (2)

who are you to say what makes sense to me? i'm not the brightest bulb in the bunch, it takes me a while. obviously, a roll cage is a whole nother level of stiffness. actually, when i first got my car, it didn't even have sway bars on it and handled fine for me, which i attribute partly to the sfc....but to each his own......i don't think i or anyone else was saying they were a miracle cure, just that they made a noticeable difference in everyday normal driving...at least that's what i was trying to say.......and to sam, yeah, metal sure does bend, but you can't always jack up a car from dead center, can you? well, i couldn't then.......by the way, i really do like your website and it's format with the forums for questions......i haven't been on it in a while, but when i was looking for swaybars i checked it out.....

what you really need to do is have an old electra and dakota around to drive every now and then and it dosn't matter what the camaro drives like, it feels like it's on rails....

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

I guess my point was, that big boxed SFC's help...some. A cage, though made out of smaller material helps more. It is not due to the material, it is due to the geometry of the cage. It has triangulation and in the directions that force is being transmitted through it. The triangulation on SFC, while helpful (or it seems to be), it is not in the direction of the loads. Think of a cage as a "suspension bridge" design. It can support lots of weight and it helps to make things rigid.


And, you are correct, I have no idea what makes sense to you. I'll never give you credit for keeping up in a conversation again.

distortion_69

iTrader: (20)

I'd tend to believe what Sam says with his credentials, but here is my personal experience:

<-- Had an LT1 with some decent abuse and no subframe connectors.. tons of ripples in the 1/4 panels even years ago. I put subframes on the car at 120k miles.. its now at 160k miles.. and I'd say they worked, because they didn't seem to spread any further than they already were.

<-- Has an LS1 that has been dumped from the rev limiter on slicks, and although I have did my best to baby it.. it has definately seen more track use than the LT1.. It has subframe connectors since I first bought it. Next to no ripples.

This is the reason I think subframes do help. However, my experience might be flawed as the LS1 could magically gain a ton of them once it gets a few more miles to catch up to where my LT1 was when I bought it.

Josh

demonspeed

iTrader: (7)

This is exactly how I felt. I feel kinda bad calling Sam on this, but it just didn't seem to make any sense to me after all the cars I've seen with the same problem. Maybe it's different in a drag race setting (I've never heard of an autox car pulling the wheels as it leaves the line).

Here's another example. About 2-3 years ago a buddy of mine brought his 01 SS out to an autox event (when it was at the bus place for us locals). It only had about 20-30K miles on it at the time. He had the usual lid/catback mods at the time, but no subframes. When we got home, he had these dimples (not as severe as Sam's Z, but they weren't there before the event). He then promptly put on subframe connectors. No more dimpling, but I'm not sure if he's ever done anything competitive besides drag racing since that one autox event.

I put my subframe connectors on at appx 18k miles. My 01 Z was going to get them at appx 90K miles, but I sold it instead. When I get another car, SFCs will be one of my first mods.

Oh well. I'd like someone to maybe convince Steve Spohn or Lou Gigliotti that subframes aren't really that great.

Off topic... Sam, you said you "drag race" with your friends. Any times? If you do it on the street "for fun", let me know when and where and I'll bring some guys that don't know how to turn.

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

We covered this topic pretty well once before.

Start here:

https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...ame+connectors

Critter is an engineer in the automotive/chassis field, and the rest are the usual suspects....

No Juice

iTrader: (11)

Do you guys have any pics of these dimples you are talking about?

demonspeed

iTrader: (7)

Good read. Could it be that they aren't important? I'm sure it will still be arguable. I wonder, if such engineering thoughts are present on the subject, then how come subframe connectors are still very popular modifications? Would ignorance have prevailed through such "scientific" facts?

The world may never know.

demonspeed

iTrader: (7)

I wish I had a picture of Sam's car. His dimples are probably on the extreme side of things, and I bet you'd be hard-pressed to find another car with the severity of dimpling his has produced. His car isn't really a driver, so I don't think he cares much.

demonspeed

iTrader: (7)

I had another "memory"

When I had my Mustang, I got ran off the road by an older lady not paying attention as she merged onto the road. I ditched my car into a pretty high curb going about 45mph and I had about 7 grand in damages, including 1-2 weeks on a frame-straightening machine. Even after it was off the machine, it would cinch back into it's misaligned position. The body shop I took my car suggested subframe connectors to keep the thing straight. I bought Maximum Motorsports SFC's and the thing stayed straight after they were put on. The owner (Mike Weaver of GW Auto Body for you locals) said if I would have had the SFC's in the first place, my car wouldn't have got twisted up so bad.

So there is a case in which the SFC's will help.

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

Well. They do seem to help. That is a reasonable statement. They are not "optimum", nor do they stiffen as much as a cage. I didn't say they were worthless, just that they may get more credit than they deserve. I do have a set, welded them on at less than 2,000 miles on my car. I was just trying to clarify that they may not "save the world". That's all.

demonspeed

iTrader: (7)

Ok, fair enough. I personally feel that they will help prevent the higher mileage creaks and rattles of the interior. I also feel they will help prevent the ¼ panel dimples for my driving duties. Other people have thrown the SFC's on their high mileage cars to find their rattles and creaks diminished after the install.

Back to the beginning of it, I started the thread because Sam made it seem like subframe connectors won't do anything for your car, at least during our conversation. The truth seems it might not do anything for an extreme case of competition, such as how Sam drives his car on a regular basis, but for the majority of people, the SFC's might be the perfect ticket to keeping the car straight - for those of us who prefer to go down the 1320 and who like to rip around on the street.

I am by no means a master corner-carver, and I highly doubt you'll see me zipping around cones again, but the info in this thread pertains to everyone.

jdustu

iTrader: (2)

well shucks, i was just about to write them in on my ballot for president......NOBODY said they would save the world.....you assumed that and even while downplaying their significance admit that they are helpful.....that's the only thing we were getting at: that it seemed that sam was telling dmnspd that they weren't helpful, but all he was saying was the springs help too......sometimes you guys try to outhink youselves......they cost less than 200 dollars, are easy to install, and help *to whatever degree*......i'm all for that...

demonspeed

iTrader: (7)

Bingo!

But I think we're all finally on the same page and understanding

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Let's convince the guys that make them and sell them they aren't really that great..... FIRST of all, I never said there were bad. That I have to make clear. What I mean to say is very simple, you can very much help the body of the car and the handling and ride all at once with fixing what GM messed up worse, which is the suspension vs. the chassis. I sell SFC's too. Who's do you want? SLP? Hotchkis? Addco? Competition Engineering? It's not a matter of me saying this because I can't supply you with them, or the opposite in saying YOU MUST HAVE them because I do sell them. Both of which happen a lot. There is a lot of profit margin in those things. After all, they aren't complicated, but sell for a nice chunk of change.

13.18 @ 107.9 with a K&N drop-in, Loudmouth. On GS-C's, 2.01 60' time, 35mm solid front bar, 1/8" toe-out, Koni's set almost full stiff in the front. I ran it like I autoxed it in F-stock. All I did was drop the rear pressures to 22 lbs. Also, the same day with the same mods but on RS-A's, Karl Bender (the Blue Formula that was at the autox) ran 13.15 @ 108.2 with a 2.00 60' time. I fully expect the car to be faster now. I have an aluminum flywheel, StainlessWorks long-tube w/high flow cats, a lid, torque management is turned off, etc.

Nittany_marine

iTrader: (7)

I have the exact same problem Steve. They seem to be placed at the beginning, and ens of my trailing arms, on the drivers, and passenger side, respectively. I just bought a set of BMR SFC's. Hopefully that will prevent any further dimples. We'll see!

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

It has been my experience that DMNSPD will argue and debate with just about anyone on just about anything.

I can't recall him ever arguing a point, where suspension setup is concerned, where he has brought any hard data to the table to prove his point. It's more of a "feeling", which is way too subjective and ambiguous.

He seems to use assumptions, inuendo and out of context wording found on the internet and creatively spawn facts out of them. He is very talented at it.

My advice Kevin and Sam, is to just move on. You are wasting precious time and effort. Sometimes, you just have to give a horse his reins and let them play themselves out.

JMHO

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

I gave up on this thread about 2 posts ago, but I'm an addict (or hard headed) and keep coming back.