View Poll Results: 2pt Vs 3pt Subframes
2pt
86
38.74%
3pt
136
61.26%
Voters: 222. You may not vote on this poll
Subframe Connectors: 2pt vs 3pt
10-26-2005, 06:23 PM
#21
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Not to detract, but also when items are charged through debit, some may appear as pending, then sometimes take 90 days to reflect on a cardholder's account. This is sometimes due to holds that a financial institution may have in place as a part of their policies. I know how it can be frustrating since the same thing has happened to me on numerous occasions.
Not to beat this dead horse, but for everyone besides Sam (and some expert onlookers), it's funny how some try to fix problems simply by word of mouth, word on the street, and via the internet. Just a reminder once again that I see no problem when one wants to modify their chassis. It is their car and their business, however since this forum allows truthful input, I will continue to contribute the truths about some misconceptions. The 4th Gen "absolutely needing SFC's" is a great example.
Not to beat this dead horse, but for everyone besides Sam (and some expert onlookers), it's funny how some try to fix problems simply by word of mouth, word on the street, and via the internet. Just a reminder once again that I see no problem when one wants to modify their chassis. It is their car and their business, however since this forum allows truthful input, I will continue to contribute the truths about some misconceptions. The 4th Gen "absolutely needing SFC's" is a great example.
10-29-2005, 03:46 AM
#22
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So this may not be the greatest point to go off topic, maybe another thread is the better place. It seems as though we have some "expert" onlookers and inputters (not a word, whatever) here. Since the need for SFC's are a misconseption, what would be the steps to take, first to last, and items to build up the suspensions on a car keeping in mind that it is a daily driver and not a drag racer? I think many have touched on this but to hear it again from the educated would be nice.
10-29-2005, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by skatinjay27
ya i thought that too when i voted and then got the results of the poll. 3pt arent necisary unless you've got like 600+ hp ,but then again they dont help n-e-ways and its not like the cars a sub-frame car 
10-29-2005, 10:27 PM
#24
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They will keep the car straight for the life of it. They also cut down on rattles. They should also help with weight transfer during launches at the drag strip. Less flex in the chassis will help put more power to the wheels. I would go with the 2pt. in your case the 3pt. is overkill, and unnecessary added weight.
10-31-2005, 10:55 AM
#25
If stiffer is better, why would you NOT go 3 point over 2? Seems silly to me that if you are going to bother installing SFC's, you'd go with a less stiff connector, when you are trying to... stiffen the car.
Note, that it seems to be a popular idea that I think SFC's suck, and are totally useless. That is NOT the case, at all. Simply that they shouldn't be at the top of the list for suspension tuning, which they seem to be for many.
I sell a lot of products, 2-pt and 3-pts among them from a few different companies. If I thought they were totally useless I wouldn't sell them. And because I sell such a variety of products, you'd think it wouldn't much matter to me what you buy. A sale is a sale, right? Wrong. I carry the number of products I do so the customer knows they are being recommended what best suits their needs. And at times I've sent folks away to buy somethings I don't carry. If they need it, that's my concern first and foremost.
Note, that it seems to be a popular idea that I think SFC's suck, and are totally useless. That is NOT the case, at all. Simply that they shouldn't be at the top of the list for suspension tuning, which they seem to be for many.
I sell a lot of products, 2-pt and 3-pts among them from a few different companies. If I thought they were totally useless I wouldn't sell them. And because I sell such a variety of products, you'd think it wouldn't much matter to me what you buy. A sale is a sale, right? Wrong. I carry the number of products I do so the customer knows they are being recommended what best suits their needs. And at times I've sent folks away to buy somethings I don't carry. If they need it, that's my concern first and foremost.
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Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
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2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
10-31-2005, 04:26 PM
#26
For a street driven car that is not beat on too bad you definitly don't need SFC's. I'm pretty hard on my car; I autoX with 13 inch slicks on high-grip concrete with over 400 rwhp. I have 700 lb/in front springs. So I installed the biggest and stiffest SFC's I could get: SLP. They added weight to the car and reduced ground clearance. I think it would be wiser to put the same amount of steel into a cage instead; that will make the car stronger without losing ground clearance, plus add driver safety. That is what I would do a second time around.
If you get them, get SLP or some other with square tubing. That way you can use them as jacking rails.
If you get them, get SLP or some other with square tubing. That way you can use them as jacking rails.
Last edited by Cal; 10-31-2005 at 04:31 PM.
11-14-2005, 01:55 AM
#27
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So 700lb/in. front must be the limit, since I am running 650lb/in. on the front and still have no evidence of chassis flexing.
Oh, and I agree that a cage would be a better option than most SFC's. The point of my "no need for SFC's" postings are not that they're are useless, it's just that some add them to attempt to solve a problem that lies elsewhere with the vehicle. Problem or no problem, drivers add them just because the advertisements say so, and everone else loves to spread the wisdom of placebo modding.
Oh, and I agree that a cage would be a better option than most SFC's. The point of my "no need for SFC's" postings are not that they're are useless, it's just that some add them to attempt to solve a problem that lies elsewhere with the vehicle. Problem or no problem, drivers add them just because the advertisements say so, and everone else loves to spread the wisdom of placebo modding.
11-17-2005, 11:04 AM
#30
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SLP's are the stiffest the main rails are a 2x3" rectangular section. KB's are a nice design but only 1" tubing. Longitudinal stiffness is very important. I'd be willing to bet that a car with UMI/BMR 2-pt (2" square .120 wall) SFC's would be torsionally stiffer than one with KB's or UMI 3-point SFC's.
11-19-2005, 05:57 PM
#31
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I had a 94 mustang gt convertible before I had this car and I was duped into thinking these damn things would make the car feel more solid. "Especially on a convertible." I didnt notice a thing.
Ive noticed a lot of people on here stand by the products they bought just for the main cause that they spent their money on it. I, on th eother hand, will always be one of those people who will tell you if I wasted my money or not.
Ive noticed a lot of people on here stand by the products they bought just for the main cause that they spent their money on it. I, on th eother hand, will always be one of those people who will tell you if I wasted my money or not.
11-21-2005, 04:24 PM
#32
Originally Posted by AKIRA
I had a 94 mustang gt convertible before I had this car and I was duped into thinking these damn things would make the car feel more solid. "Especially on a convertible." I didnt notice a thing.
Ive noticed a lot of people on here stand by the products they bought just for the main cause that they spent their money on it. I, on th eother hand, will always be one of those people who will tell you if I wasted my money or not.
Ive noticed a lot of people on here stand by the products they bought just for the main cause that they spent their money on it. I, on th eother hand, will always be one of those people who will tell you if I wasted my money or not.
Everybod seems to say "oh yeah I felt a big difference with SFCs." I didn't feel anything different when I put them on; car was still new and tight already. Now that I have very stiff springs and shocks, I'm glad I have them on there as added insurance, but I still can't prove they are doing anything, other than acting as fine jacking rails and adding weight to the car. As I said before, I would rather have the same amount of steel in a cage which will not only make the car stiffer, but help to save my azz someday.
11-23-2005, 01:17 PM
#33
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ok to shorten all this up. would one of you guys that was talking about suspension stuff give a clear answer. Do 4th gen F bodies (mine is a hard top) need subframe connectors? only reason why i want to put some on my car is to be a premptive strike to the possiblities of the development of squeaks. i plan on keeping this car forever so i do NOT want any squeaks at all and i plan on doing some suspspension/motor mods
11-23-2005, 01:29 PM
#34
Squeaks happen, and SFC's can't prevent every one. Does the 4th gen need them, IMHO, not it does not NEED them. Can they benefit from them? Yes, but not as much as other cars that are more flexible like 3rd gens and Fox and SN95 Mustangs. And certainly not as much as good shocks (which absorb impacts better, helping the structure remain solid).
You won't get the answer you are looking for, that's what this thread is about. You need to make the best decision for you, regardless of what others say. The only thing I'll add is that there is a lot of bad information around... let common sense be your guide.
You won't get the answer you are looking for, that's what this thread is about. You need to make the best decision for you, regardless of what others say. The only thing I'll add is that there is a lot of bad information around... let common sense be your guide.
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Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
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www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
11-23-2005, 03:48 PM
#35
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I have to agree with those who do AX and RR here. Squeaks can happen on any vehicle of any manufacturer and vintage. 4th Gen F-body chassis are really a lot more solid than the consensus would have here. Their bone stock suspensions aren't.
SFC's can only cure squeaks that originate from the chassis itself, not the suspension and not the loose interior itself. Still to this day, I have yet to develop any chassis deformities, and I run some stiff swaybars (thanks, Sam) and a heavy duty coil-over system (thanks, LG). The only vibration I have is from the weak spare tire jack retention hold down, and I don't think that SFC's will ever cure that.
SFC's can only cure squeaks that originate from the chassis itself, not the suspension and not the loose interior itself. Still to this day, I have yet to develop any chassis deformities, and I run some stiff swaybars (thanks, Sam) and a heavy duty coil-over system (thanks, LG). The only vibration I have is from the weak spare tire jack retention hold down, and I don't think that SFC's will ever cure that.
11-24-2005, 09:18 AM
#36
my .02$ I have owned a 3rd gen 87 trans am for 15 years(before 4th gen) it has ws6, i thought best of the best as mi tolled up squaeks and rattles grew finally decided after reading posts on thirdgen.org i decided to install a wonder bar- slight but noticeable easy add on, then came edelbrock 3 point STB wow! i was impressed ,then came alston SFC now with all 3 it rides so much better/different then it ever did. prior to this i did eibach springs- didnt lower but maybe 1/2" and did KYB shocks/struts and wasnt really impressed, over all was thinking this was a good handling car- but was tough on rough roads, now the update a buddy inherited a 99 base trans am(w 17x9.5wheels added), clean LS1 6 speed - how could i resist? we traded for a 69 firebird of mine,anyway now ive been driving it for 2 months now.ride is even better esp on rougher roads and takes corners better than i could with the 3rd gen ?? I never expected that, I was allways led to belive that the 3rd gen was still up to it . maybe the difference is on uneven corners that the new car has the advantage since the springs are softer ? the third gen will eat up smooth cloverleafs wonderfully but if it gets very uneven pavement that confidence goes away. Im no suspension expert these are just my observations. now im wondering about adding a bigger front -32or33mm on the 99 , it currently has a 30 mm... any opinions on that Sam? sorry dont mean to hijack thread 
11-24-2005, 01:14 PM
#37
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In the interest of research, let me ask this, Sam: do you see ANY use for SFC's? You say that you don't dislike them, just that people use them to solve a problem caused elsewhere. I can understand that as far as suspension and rattles. But what about chassis/body integrity? I've seen LS1 4th gens with 100, 200, etc thousand miles on them start to develop cracks in the body from just "normal" use (normal for an F-body anyway). Do you think that SFC's can prevent this type of fatigue/damage?
Thanks
Thanks
11-24-2005, 03:27 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by Sam Strano
Foxxton is right on...
You are trying to make the car feel more solid, and he's telling you that SFC's help do that but by way of fixing the result, not the root of the problem. Proper shocks/springs/bars make the car feel like a slot car with nary a SFC to be found.
To add to his point, I have a customer who installed SFC's with a not great set of shocks (KYB AGX's) and pretty good lowering springs. Noted a big difference in the way the car drove. Later he put on Koni's in place of the AGX's and we did coil-overs but with very similar rates to the previous springs. He then cut off the SFC's (welded 3 points) and noticed NO DIFFERENCE with or without them. That tells you that while the SFC's helped with the crappy shocks, they were not helping wtih the good shocks in place.
If you are going to bother, you might as well go big as you can.... And yes, we do sell SFC's even though I'm telling you that you have other things going on. I just want you to do what's best, not what's easiest.
I don't know where you are with the other parts, but if you have improperly chosen products for shocks/springs/bars then you will always have sub-par performance regardless of what else you add.
You are looking to fix a feel... have the car drive better, right? The suspension is a much more important part of that than is the chassis. That wouldn't be the case if the frame was broken or something, but it's not. And 4th gen's are so much stronger than older cars were (and designed knowing they'd be convertibles too). The chassis is not the problem.
You are trying to make the car feel more solid, and he's telling you that SFC's help do that but by way of fixing the result, not the root of the problem. Proper shocks/springs/bars make the car feel like a slot car with nary a SFC to be found.
To add to his point, I have a customer who installed SFC's with a not great set of shocks (KYB AGX's) and pretty good lowering springs. Noted a big difference in the way the car drove. Later he put on Koni's in place of the AGX's and we did coil-overs but with very similar rates to the previous springs. He then cut off the SFC's (welded 3 points) and noticed NO DIFFERENCE with or without them. That tells you that while the SFC's helped with the crappy shocks, they were not helping wtih the good shocks in place.
If you are going to bother, you might as well go big as you can.... And yes, we do sell SFC's even though I'm telling you that you have other things going on. I just want you to do what's best, not what's easiest.
I don't know where you are with the other parts, but if you have improperly chosen products for shocks/springs/bars then you will always have sub-par performance regardless of what else you add.
You are looking to fix a feel... have the car drive better, right? The suspension is a much more important part of that than is the chassis. That wouldn't be the case if the frame was broken or something, but it's not. And 4th gen's are so much stronger than older cars were (and designed knowing they'd be convertibles too). The chassis is not the problem.
11-27-2005, 10:37 PM
#39
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my car has 145,000 miles on it. it was a state police car so it was driven through medians and stuff, for the most part it seems sooo solid but whenever i go up a hill not straight on i can hear it creaking and moaning and honestly i dont like it at all. i was just wondering if SFCs would be a good first strike against future creaks and chassis flex, and the answer i am geting is pretty much "no"
11-28-2005, 12:21 AM
#40
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Originally Posted by Cop Car
my car has 145,000 miles on it. it was a state police car so it was driven through medians and stuff, for the most part it seems sooo solid but whenever i go up a hill not straight on i can hear it creaking and moaning and honestly i dont like it at all. i was just wondering if SFCs would be a good first strike against future creaks and chassis flex, and the answer i am geting is pretty much "no"
1. Can't remember if you're running stock DeCarbons, but if you are, replace the shocks with something with a higher quality and better valving.
2. Check your bushings and mounts. If they've never been replaced, then go ahead and replace them.
3. If indeed it has been over too many medians and bumps, then go ahead and get the monocoque checked. If the monocoque isn't too straight, then bracing a crooked monocoque will lead to many future alignment problems.
4. If at that point it has been determined that your monocoque has been stressed to the point that it has been warped and possibly cracked, then get it straightened out, then...
5. you should go for subframe connectors.
I think now some see what I mean by the use of subframe connectors. Chassis reinforcement when it's needed, not so much an active handling device or sound deadening material.
Once again in street operating circumstances other than this, the 4th gen chassis is already way stiff.