CMKworm

iTrader: (2)

I'd like some opinions on street cars for what suspension parts are a must-have upgrade over stock in the fields of performance and handling.

BLCKBRD

iTrader: (6)

subframe connectors

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

I will emphasise: shocks, shocks, shocks, shocks. STBs and SFC's are much money spent to add weight and their benefits don't really improve handling, regardless of placebo effects. Can't stop with shocks? Then consider a larger set of sway bars afterwards.

One thing to remember when replacing shocks. Proper valving. If you pick lowering springs (ones that aren't too soft), it's mandatory to have shocks that are valved to dampen your respective springs oscillation.

T-rex

iTrader: (3)

SFC's may not help handling, but they damn sure tighten the car up and help prevent those pesky rattles that show up.Though I can't believe that anything that increases structural rigidity doesn't improve handling.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

That's the problem. Many who mention things like that haven't done enough to make sure what's really the problem behind the causes of the NVH. Many of those causes are a result of the poor fit and finish and not some contrived matter that the "unitbody is very loose and needs tightening." Quite the contrary. many monocoques need SFC's, this isn't one of them. He asked for a daily driver, not something which he is doing 4K rpm burnouts with 500+ rwhp, and he'd be better off with a good roolcage when he gets to that point.

As I mention in other threads, AXer's and RRer's really know what I mean, why? Because I also RR as well, and we do nothing but handling and braking like crazy. The fact is, SFC's and STB's are used when not needed to fix a result and not solve the problem directly. Like the Atkins Diet, SFC's have much folklore. Yes the chassis could be stiffer, but the SFC's just plain and simple don't do what they are supposedly for. Advertisments are just simply not accurate when they mention it.

For 3rd Gen's, that's a different story, but for 4th Gen's, they are a vastly improved design when it comes to the need for stiffness. What's amazing is how many people confuse this whole SFC market as being hard fact by just simplistic feelings and many contrived advertisements, when a matter of fact, much of that feeling doesn't necessarily translate into what's physically happening with the vehicle. That's what strain guages and FEA is for.

I have had 3 sets of SFC of 3 different designs for many different intervals of the vehicle, and none did what the consensus here states. I have used a plasma cutter and MIG welder several times to install and remove them in order to see what they do for handling. If anything, they have done nothing the human buttocks can measure. I have a T-top and has been brutalised on several road courses and AX courses and still is a daily driver. People who ride in the vehicle still think I have the SFC's still installed, but the problem is, they didn't look underneath the vehicle. No SFC's are installed, however improved shocks/springs/swaybars are installed. Shall I also mention that I have much better seats and harnesses that are designed to better keep one's rear (butt and back) planted to the seat? Sure beats what those are feeling with stock Camaro/Firebird seats, even with about the same padding as stock (doesn't hurt that the buckets are about 4lbs. lighter each). And guess what? Half of the NVH was from a crummy factory bucket. The cowl shake? Was there, but fixed that by making sure the dash was firmly mounted and off it's velcro. The t-tops? flexed slightly before, and flexed to the same extent even after I installed the SFC's. You'd have to reach up to it and jam your finger into the crack (almost to the point where they were painful) to even tell if they were loose.

1000's will flock to this thread with the "SFC's help statement" and they guy will just probably waste his money, and people will make up more folklore, however I will keep mentioning what I will mention and clearly support it with facts.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

I gave up trying to educate the poor, huddled, masses.

You too will become frustrated and just let the lemmings do what they want to do anyway ... make a really nifty signature. Function really doesn't matter.

It amazes me that folks allow their *** to over-ride their brain. Must have something to do with a ligter wallet.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

I totally agree mitch, because this board is full of placebo lemmings to all heck. Yes, all lemmings are applauding and jeering now because they now have one less "rumour exterminator" to deal with and more of incoming lemmings with their lemming droppings.

After all, the lighter wallet must be a result of all of the jealously with not being able to keep up with the "Jones'" and the "Smiths'" because if they aren't with the consumer culture, it ain't cool. Oh wait, my mistake, it's an absolute must to first spend the money for very important mind altering drugs, the placebo kind.

May Spin

I agree, I have never noticed enough flex in these cars to consider SFC's. Shocks, tires and a good alignment (a lot of negative camber) should be considered first and before anyting else..... Period. A big front swaybar is a very close second. After that the only way to control weight transfer is increasing spring rates. And that will open up pandora's box.

Scott.

NHRAMAN

iTrader: (1)

Ask any Road Racer-[except Foxxton]-----SFC's WORK...NOT FOLKLORE. ..!!!!Springs and better shocks,as well as sway bars and better control arms are well worth the money too. I also have a panhard and STB. Altogether these improve the quality of the ride in firmness and precision.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Mitchntx, Sam Strano, Cal, NataSS are RR. At least get that straight. And try better testing than your *** alone.

NHRAMAN

iTrader: (1)

Is that right...??? and what exactly does " At least get that straight" mean.?? also, I guess race cars don't have alot of bracing either I guess. ...

May Spin

I hear alot of folks say "SFC's got rid of that rattle coming from my dash, it really tightened up my car". And it's usually from the same people that lower their car increase their spring rates by 70% and still try control them with with stock shocks and say "my car handles great".

Do SFC's help... Maybe. Does a STB help.... Maybe. But on a 4th gen F-body they most certainly are NOT a "must-have".

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Yes, I have an 8-point rollcage in mine with Corbeau seats. That's where I decide to put some real rigidity, and safety for the matter. Bracing is needed for race cars, but for a street car/daily driver, absolutely not.

I see that you didn't read the details from what the thread starter asked. Unless he will say, "racing" (even if it's illegal street racing), I read street car as "street legal" for the primary purpose, and racing as only when it will be mentioned.

You really should concentrate on why you state your findings to be right, and not telling who not to listen to. If you read my threads, you notice that I don't name names, just "who to listen to" and "what ideas should not be taken seriously." I don't and will not name names on who to ignore.

EDIT: "What does that mean?" is just another display of your ignorance. If you said "ask any other road racer", at least name someone that agrees with you, because those examples are one's who subscribe to what I have discovered as well.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Thank you, you're right on the money May Spin. Once again, the placebo effects that are encountered are also ones as a result of too many left over "maybes."

Again, 1000 lab rat effects can only be conclusive if the "maybes" are eliminated, and not by just feeding everyone the same exact thing thus turning them into lemmings.

To the thread starter, please don't be imtimidated. What I am speaking from is that if you want better handling for the street, do shocks and springs first. Make sure that if you change from a stock spring, get the ride height and spring rates to work with appropriately valved shocks to match. I think then if you're not happy with the body roll you have, then consider an appropriate matched sway bar upgrade.

zeeboid

So...

Subframes help but not must have, sound good?
(I did notice, btw, a stiffer ride even comming off my driveway)



My must have choices:

Torque Arm
Lower Control Arms

Both are easy to install, and greatly help get rid of wheel hop, which all 4th Gens have stock. that harsh jaring of the rear end can't be good for anything.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

I really don't think that anybody here needs to sound "good", it's just that they aren't really explaining more than what their buttocks feel and thus resting on their laurels. I don't mind with someone disagreeing with me, but I think it's best to stay on topic and not worry about "subliminal messages" and naming names that are to be downgraded, meaningless rebuttals, and most of all, prove more than just one good "gluteous maximus feeling", especially when using the stock seats.

For added information, a stiffer ride coming off the driveway is what I felt as well when I had stock shocks, but as soon as I upgraded, I didn't think of removing them, until the curiosity sparked my mind by viewing a few posts by some experienced engineers and by one road racer who used them for a completely different purpose. I repeatedly installed and removed each on my second suspension configuration numerous times only to "no longer feel a difference" with or without them.

But yes, the other items you mention is definitely what will help with what you describe, especially if your LCA's were messed up by the factory "tolerance lottery" like mine were. Torque arm may be necessary only if the stock one is bent, and/or the vehicle is lowered to the extent of screwing up the rear pinion angle considerably. If I had to get another torque arm again, I might get an adjustible one to be more precise, however, I guess that -2 degrees in neutral gear is okay for what I have.

I would also add that other than what is been "objectively" mentioned, there are other matters to take into handling. I won't mention the others yet until asked, however your tyres will be a significant determinant for how well your vehicle can grip, thus making better use of your suspension.

chupr0kabra

iTrader: (10)

1) Shocks
2) Bigger swaybars

Those two mods will make it a totally different ride.


-Mike

Silver99Z28

iTrader: (1)

I was asking myself the same question one year ago. Living in germany, where we are driving very fast, the Z28 stock suspension was inadequate and at speeds >130mph even dangerous...

What I did (one after another to check the difference):

- Added a chrome moly strut tower brace
Result: Quasi nothing. I felt a little improvement when going into tight corners, but more a feeling than a fact.

- Changed to an adjustable panhard bar
Result: A real imporvement during accelaration in corners. With the stock phb the car was swinging al little from the left to the right during kickdown in a curve.

- Changed to lower control arms with poly / rod-ends
Result: The car felt a little bit more robust during accelaration and braking (don't know how to describe it). But also added a lot of noise.

- Added a boxed style 2-Point subframe connector (weld in)
Result: Nothing (sorry...) Everything that was rattling before, was still rattling. I Can't feel a difference.

- Changed to an 32mm front sway bar and poly bushings and poly end links
Result: Noticeable, best imporvement until then... The car felt better now in tight corners!

- Changed the wheels from 245/50R16 to 275/40R17 all around
Result: Car felt really better. But now things where rattling, that never rattled before, what a "concerto grande" and tramlining on the highway is now really hefty.

But the biggest problem still exists... In very fast highway curves or braking maneuvers, the cars feels still insecure and dangerous...

I still have the Bilstein Tuned Suspension Kit in the basement. What I've learned here from reading in this great board is, that the Bilstein HD's are not a good choice for the lowering springs. So I will take the HD's and put them on the car, together with the stock springs.

What I've learned from doing it this way...

Good idea... wrong order... Next time I will:
1.) Change the shocks!
2.) Add a front sway bar (more than 32mm) and evt. one in the rear too.
3.) Change the wheels and tires (looks good and good for handling)

If still some money in the pocket:
3.) Panhard Bar and Lower Control Arms
4.) Strut Tower Brace


Subframe connectors are really good for lifting the car...

Just my experience... regards from Germany...

Holger

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Well gee wiz, you gotta tell us more what's it like to be a full time ORR on the daily commute to work! (super thread hijack in progress)

but seriously, that's similar to what I've done as well, but in fact, your really touched many bases as far as using the vehicle as a "ORR commuter."

My question would be, did you ever install a roll cage, and if not, did you consider one? I felt the exact same way when I approached the speeds of 130 several times on straightaways (open tracking and practice that is), and that "insecure feeling" was enough to make me change priorities for impelementing safety first at about any cost.

EDIT: safety gear would even include improved buckets with a respective method to harness the 4 or 5-point belts. While I'm at it, I'd almost be tempted to wear the full safety gear (nomex suit, helmet, neck brace, what ever it takes).

BTW, I think the member's username is roy, but he's still in Germany, and he not only runs the Porshce Brembo setup, but a Bilstein motorsport setup like I have that can use 2.5" ID coil-over springs with professional user re-valving. I didn't know also if you used those as well.

EDIT: here's the info on that other member: https://ls1tech.com/forums/member.php?userid=1541
Also, if the brake question comes up and there are any doubts to the sticky info: https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...&highlight=roy

(hijack off, back to regularly scheduled topic).

JD_AMG

Very good write up. Im thinking the main thing that makes the f-bod feel insecure at high speeds is the lack of steering feel, and the lightness of the wheel. Any way to fix this and still remain streetable?