CTS-V brakes, something different
03-16-2007, 06:20 AM
#81
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I ask because you might be able to find a BMW two piece that might work. I know the wheels are offset a bit different and the bolt pattern is so close that a dremel would take care of anything not sliding right on.
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Last edited by w02ramair; 03-16-2007 at 06:25 AM.
03-16-2007, 06:27 AM
#83
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ok i found this
but that doesn't give me much info on how deep the rotor hat has to be.
you need the rotor to have a minimum of 27mm from hub to surface of the rotor..
03-16-2007, 06:57 AM
#86
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well crap..those measurments don't help me none they werent for what I thought they were for...
but here is an idea...how hard would it be to get a hat made?
Since you are making the adapters..
200 bucks buys you a pair of rotor rings
but here is an idea...how hard would it be to get a hat made?
Since you are making the adapters..
200 bucks buys you a pair of rotor rings
Last edited by w02ramair; 03-16-2007 at 07:04 AM.
03-16-2007, 07:52 AM
#87
Originally Posted by w02ramair
ok i found this
but that doesn't give me much info on how deep the rotor hat has to be.
but that doesn't give me much info on how deep the rotor hat has to be.
I don't know how thick the CTS-V caliper is, but I assume it's pretty close.
I was also able to look at a C5 vette with some rims that resembled the base C6 rims. There was almost 1 inch already there between the caliper and the spokes. I'm sure that a small spacer of 5mm would make room for sure. This was an 18x8.5 rim with a 56mm offset. With a wider rim of the same offset there should be plenty of room for the CTS-V caliper to fit. This is with all stock C5 and C6 Z06 rotors mind you as they both have the same offset.
So on one hand the vette rotors will work as long as you have the right rims. For you guys who already have nice rims, but lack any extra clearance (lets say you current rims are almost touching your C5 calipers) you would need to push the rotor back an extra 0.9". So if the stock C5 rotors already has a 16mm offset then you would need a new rotor with a 40mm or so offset.
If I had the deminsions of the C6 Z06 caliper and the CTS-V caliper I could compare them and give a more exact number, but for right now I'm assuming they both are similar in width.
Does all that make sense? So 40mm (1.6") from the rim contact area on the hub to the surface of the friction disc. This is so deep that it might not even fit. Eventually the rotor will hit something. I don't know what the limit is though. EDIT: I FOUND THE LIMIT. THE MOST OFFSET WE CAN RUN IS ABOUT 30mm.
If you have either the LS1 or C5 calipers right now and almost no spoke clearance you can look and see how far back the rotor can move in before it hits something. You would need an additional 25mm (1") of space. If you do have spoke clearance, measure it in mm. and subtract that number from 25. This new number will tell you the MINIMUM extra backspacing your new rotor will need just to barely clear the spokes. So you may want to add a few extra mm just to make sure it will clear.
Assuming we can find a rotor with a 40mm offset and assuming that the rotor doesn't hit something first (like the spindle) we can have a single rotor that would work for everybody. EDIT, 30mm IS THE LIMIT.
For those of you who currently have a nice gap from the spokes to the C5 calipers you wouldn't need the 40mm offset rotor as you could use a shallower rotor. If you already have a 1" gap then you can use the vette rotor. So the minimal rotor offset is going to vary from person to person based on how much spoke clearance you currently have.
Hopefully my logic is correct.
Let me know if it's not or if you need me to further explain it. Last edited by JasonWW; 03-18-2007 at 04:58 PM.
03-16-2007, 08:19 AM
#88
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Originally Posted by JasonWW
I was looking at some caliper clearance templates between the C5 caliper and the C6 Z06 caliper and I also believe the stock vette rotor has 16mm of offset as previously mentioned. The stock caliper extends 0.8" from the outside surface of the mounting hub. The fatter 6 piston caliper extends 1.7" out. So that's about 1 extra inch or 25mm.
I don't know how thick the CTS-V caliper is, but I assume it's pretty close.
I was also able to look at a C5 vette with some rims that resembled the base C6 rims. There was almost 1 inch already there between the caliper and the spokes. I'm sure that a small spacer of 5mm would make room for sure. This was an 18x8.5 rim with a 56mm offset. With a wider rim of the same offset there should be plenty of room for the CTS-V caliper to fit. This is with all stock C5 and C6 Z06 rotors mind you as they both have the same offset.
So on one hand the vette rotors will work as long as you have the right rims. For you guys who already have nice rims, but lack any extra clearance (lets say you current rims are almost touching your C5 calipers) you would need to push the rotor back an extra 0.9". So if the stock C5 rotors already has a 16mm offset then you would need a new rotor with a 40mm or so offset.
If I had the deminsions of the C6 Z06 caliper and the CTS-V caliper I could compare them and give a more exact number, but for right now I'm assuming they both are similar in width.
Does all that make sense? So 40mm (1.6") from the rim contact area on the hub to the surface of the friction disc. This is so deep that it might not even fit. Eventually the rotor will hit something. I don't know what the limit is though.
If you have the 13" rotors right now you can look and see how far back the rotor can move in before it hits something. You would need an additional 40mm (1.6") of space. If you have the 12" rotor right now, you need to measure how far back it can go and you would need an extra 36mm (1.45") clearance.
Assuming we can find a rotor with a 40mm offset and assuming that the rotor doesn't hit something first (like the spindle) we can have a single rotor that would work for everybody.
For those of you who currently have a nice gap from the spokes to the C5 calipers you wouldn't need the 40mm offset rotor as you could use a shallower rotor. If you already have a 1" gap then you can use the vette rotor. So the minimal rotor offset is going to vary from person to person based on how much spoke clearance you currently have.
Hopefully my logic is correct. Let me know if it's not or if you need me to further explain it.
I don't know how thick the CTS-V caliper is, but I assume it's pretty close.
I was also able to look at a C5 vette with some rims that resembled the base C6 rims. There was almost 1 inch already there between the caliper and the spokes. I'm sure that a small spacer of 5mm would make room for sure. This was an 18x8.5 rim with a 56mm offset. With a wider rim of the same offset there should be plenty of room for the CTS-V caliper to fit. This is with all stock C5 and C6 Z06 rotors mind you as they both have the same offset.
So on one hand the vette rotors will work as long as you have the right rims. For you guys who already have nice rims, but lack any extra clearance (lets say you current rims are almost touching your C5 calipers) you would need to push the rotor back an extra 0.9". So if the stock C5 rotors already has a 16mm offset then you would need a new rotor with a 40mm or so offset.
If I had the deminsions of the C6 Z06 caliper and the CTS-V caliper I could compare them and give a more exact number, but for right now I'm assuming they both are similar in width.
Does all that make sense? So 40mm (1.6") from the rim contact area on the hub to the surface of the friction disc. This is so deep that it might not even fit. Eventually the rotor will hit something. I don't know what the limit is though.
If you have the 13" rotors right now you can look and see how far back the rotor can move in before it hits something. You would need an additional 40mm (1.6") of space. If you have the 12" rotor right now, you need to measure how far back it can go and you would need an extra 36mm (1.45") clearance.
Assuming we can find a rotor with a 40mm offset and assuming that the rotor doesn't hit something first (like the spindle) we can have a single rotor that would work for everybody.
For those of you who currently have a nice gap from the spokes to the C5 calipers you wouldn't need the 40mm offset rotor as you could use a shallower rotor. If you already have a 1" gap then you can use the vette rotor. So the minimal rotor offset is going to vary from person to person based on how much spoke clearance you currently have.
Hopefully my logic is correct.
Let me know if it's not or if you need me to further explain it.
03-16-2007, 08:21 AM
#89
Originally Posted by w02ramair
I believe the Spindle is what limits your ability to have a deep dish rotor hat. Wouldn't this also change the positioning of the caliper to center itself ont he rotor?
03-16-2007, 08:33 AM
#90
Originally Posted by fast377
I got bored tonight at work and went through the brembo brake rotor catalog (stock replacement) and looked at all the dimensions and stuff. I don't know the bolt pattern on these, all I know is that they are 5 lug and what they fit. There are only 5 part numbers that come close measurement wise...here they are (height listed is measured from outside of hat to rear side of friction surface):
2004 Audi A8: diameter=360mm, thickness=31mm, height=60
1992-95 Ferrari 512: diameter=315, thickness=30, height=61.7
1993-98 Ferrari 456: d=315, th=30, h=61.7
1996-98 Ferrari 550 Maranello: d=330, th=30, h=60.7
2003-04 Mercedes E55 AMG, SL55 AMG, SL600: d=360, th=34, h=64.5
Those are the closest I could find out of EVERY car that had dimensions relative to what was discussed earlier in this thread.
2004 Audi A8: diameter=360mm, thickness=31mm, height=60
1992-95 Ferrari 512: diameter=315, thickness=30, height=61.7
1993-98 Ferrari 456: d=315, th=30, h=61.7
1996-98 Ferrari 550 Maranello: d=330, th=30, h=60.7
2003-04 Mercedes E55 AMG, SL55 AMG, SL600: d=360, th=34, h=64.5
Those are the closest I could find out of EVERY car that had dimensions relative to what was discussed earlier in this thread.
This is based on the room we have to move the rotor back, though. Someone really needs to get in there and measure how far back we can go.Does anyone know the which of these rotors would be the most cost effective?
Those 360mm ones are 14.4". Whew!, might need a 19" wheel for those.
That's cool with me. Last edited by JasonWW; 03-18-2007 at 05:01 PM.
03-16-2007, 08:38 AM
#91
Here is a thread showing what type of caliper brackets we would need.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-2004-2007-gen-i/504354-need-pics-caliper-mounting-locations.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-2004-2007-gen-i/504354-need-pics-caliper-mounting-locations.html
03-16-2007, 09:05 AM
#92
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Right...so if you keep pushing the rotor back then the caliper is gonna have to move back too which means those modified mounts would have to be modified again. I think all that would be required is the bosses that the studs go through would have to be thickened up howerver much mm you want to move the rotor and caliper back.
03-16-2007, 09:11 AM
#93
Originally Posted by w02ramair
Right...so if you keep pushing the rotor back then the caliper is gonna have to move back too which means those modified mounts would have to be modified again.
I am going to use the C6 Z06 rotor as they are 355mm, require no redrilling or added rings (they slip right on) and only cost about $90.
I have a feeling those Audi A8, Ferrari and Mercedes rotors are going to cost an arm and a leg. Also, custom hats for the generic rotor rings is going to be quite expensive as well.
Originally Posted by w02ramair
I think all that would be required is the bosses that the studs go through would have to be thickened up howerver much mm you want to move the rotor and caliper back.
03-16-2007, 09:17 AM
#94
i think he was talking about basically using bosses as a spacer to move the caliper mounting bracket farther away form the rotor, if you got more of an offset on the rotor, instead of having to get a new caliper bracket made
03-16-2007, 09:21 AM
#95
If we can get those rings for about $100 ea. (as mentioned above) then that would be fairly equivalent to the Z06 rotor prices. It's just the hat's that will cost the extra money. Once they are bought, the cost to change the rings would be the same as the vette rotors. The only big advanteges to the 2 piece rotors would be the custom offset and the weight reduction, at the expense of price.
There is also another issue involving the internal vanes on the Z06 rotors. They only make on rotor and it has curved vanes for cooling. This is fine on one side of the car, but the other side has the rotor turning the opposite direction. Many think this is going to cuase a cooling problem. With the replacable rings, the cooling fins should all be optimized. This minor cooling issue is no big deal for me.
There is also another issue involving the internal vanes on the Z06 rotors. They only make on rotor and it has curved vanes for cooling. This is fine on one side of the car, but the other side has the rotor turning the opposite direction. Many think this is going to cuase a cooling problem. With the replacable rings, the cooling fins should all be optimized. This minor cooling issue is no big deal for me.
03-16-2007, 09:27 AM
#97
Originally Posted by BaddillaK
i think he was talking about basically using bosses as a spacer to move the caliper mounting bracket farther away form the rotor, if you got more of an offset on the rotor, instead of having to get a new caliper bracket made
03-16-2007, 09:46 AM
#99
NOTE, I reworked the numbers I used from post #87 to read like this:
If you have either the LS1 or C5 calipers right now and almost no spoke clearance you can look and see how far back the rotor can move in before it hits something. You would need an additional 25mm (1") of space. If you do have spoke clearance, measure it in mm. and subtract that number from 25. This new number will tell you the MINIMUM extra backspacing your new rotor will need just to barely clear the spokes. So you may want to add a few extra mm just to make sure it will clear.
If you have either the LS1 or C5 calipers right now and almost no spoke clearance you can look and see how far back the rotor can move in before it hits something. You would need an additional 25mm (1") of space. If you do have spoke clearance, measure it in mm. and subtract that number from 25. This new number will tell you the MINIMUM extra backspacing your new rotor will need just to barely clear the spokes. So you may want to add a few extra mm just to make sure it will clear.
03-16-2007, 09:54 AM
#100
For instance, here are some extremes.
If you currently have 25mm of spoke clearance with the 13" C5 rotor you can swap over to the 355mm Z06 rotor. This switch will not change the rotor offset because they are the same. This should just clear the new caliper.
If you have 2mm clearance and are using the 13" rotor and swap to the vette 355mm one, then you would need to either add a 1" adapter to push the rims out (that would probably look like crap) or else switch to a different rotor with a 40mm backspace or 72mm height based on a rotor surface thickness of 32mm.
Then there are variations in the middle.
Lets say you have the 13" rotors and have about 15mm spoke clearance and you don't want to push your rims out any further than absolutely neccesary. You can subtract that 15 from the 25 and you get 10mm. So lets say 12mm just to be on the safe side. So 16+12=28mm. So you need a rotor with 28mm backspace or 60mm overall height.
If you currently have 25mm of spoke clearance with the 13" C5 rotor you can swap over to the 355mm Z06 rotor. This switch will not change the rotor offset because they are the same. This should just clear the new caliper.
If you have 2mm clearance and are using the 13" rotor and swap to the vette 355mm one, then you would need to either add a 1" adapter to push the rims out (that would probably look like crap) or else switch to a different rotor with a 40mm backspace or 72mm height based on a rotor surface thickness of 32mm.
Then there are variations in the middle.
Lets say you have the 13" rotors and have about 15mm spoke clearance and you don't want to push your rims out any further than absolutely neccesary. You can subtract that 15 from the 25 and you get 10mm. So lets say 12mm just to be on the safe side. So 16+12=28mm. So you need a rotor with 28mm backspace or 60mm overall height.
Last edited by JasonWW; 03-16-2007 at 10:11 AM.