jargan04

iTrader: (1)

Sneakyws6, Track and street driving are completely different. In a street enviroment you can run drilled/sloted rotors for a long time. Think about how many times you use your brakes to slow from 120+ to say 50-60 in a 20min period. When your racing your turning atleast 1 to 2 laps in a mintures time. You use your brakes alot more in that period. You can compare a day at the track in terms of brake use and ware to a good 10K+ miles. Your rotors are big heatsinks that give enough use will warp and crack over time. I would rather have a warped rotor that dosent make perfect contact with the pads, then a crack rotors that could break at anytime.

Here is a picture of the brakes one of the members of corvette forum runs on his C6Z06 race car.



Notice the hugh blank 2piece rotor.

Fulton 1

iTrader: (9)

Let's put the age thing on the back burner, okay? I'm older than you as are many of the folks trying to "help" you understand here. While it does seem like it sometimes, not everyone here just got their license last week.


Hate to bring this up, but a fact IS proven (thereby a FACT and not a theory). Pet peeve. Sorry.


Just take a few minutes of your valuable time and browse these links and then maybe things will make some more sense. While there are certainly other informative sources, I think that these links should cover a good bit...

http://stoptech.com/tech_info/The%20...%20Systems.pdf

http://stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml

http://stoptech.com/tech_info/faqs.shtml#15

http://baer.com/Baer_tech/FAQ.html

http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/tech/index.jsp

http://www.stainlesssteelbrakes.com/tech/

Jon B.

iTrader: (5)

I'm really glad I didn't have to browse to find those threads. You saved me a good amount of time, and a good buzz (beer) on this guy.

I am gonna add this though, because it makes me laugh and a few people here will laugh with me. If anyone that doesn't know this thread, read it and be amused and maybe learn a thing or two.

http://corner-carvers.com/altimathread.php.html

Jon

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

OK pay attention. This might be a little advanced for riders of the short bus ...

A clue is that using a car on a road course, like this guy is intending to do, will REQUIRE you to pull the tires and do brakes very frequently. If you are lazy or unmotivated or clueless, maybe you should stick to watching races on TV. I've heard brakes don't wear watching TV. My Sundays are spent at the track ...

Your pimp, bling-bling, driveway jewelry brake rotors won't make the job any easier or less frequent. It WILL drain the bank account, though.

And if a person who does take his/her car to a road course often, will put the car on jack stands, take a hand full of wrenches and nut-n-bolt the car, stem to stern, to make sure the car is reliable and SAFE.

Consider yourself schooled and owned, squeakyws6.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Could you please share your vast knowledge in this thread?

https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspension-brakes/604066-what-s-best-flat-washer.html

LSGunZ28

iTrader: (8)

SneakyWS6 sounds like he knows his stuff guys, at least if you are going to prove him wrong, be 100% sure you are correct and do it like adults please.

Im gona run teh cross drilled and slotted on street. it isnt going to affect performance that much.

pn the track I will use autozone blanks, nd keep the stockers for spares, then change them at home.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

I was doing brake jobs way before your short history ...
http://www.installuniversity.com/ins...ds_mwarren.htm

And burning up caliper seals with brake heat ...
http://www.installuniversity.com/ins...er_rebuild.htm

hmmm ... I've owned you twice in one thread!

Mods, have mercy on Squeaky and ...

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

The problem is that Sneaky knows his stuff with regard to the world he lives in. He has a street car from all the info I can gather. The life of brakes on a street car is not anything like the life of brakes on the track. There have been several links to brake manufacturers websites that do not agree with Sneaky. Also, I crew chief for an American V8 Supercar Series team and we have a 2800 lb car that typically makes about 500-550 hp at the rear wheels. The car is hard on everything. Actually, racing is hard on everything. We run what are basically blank rotors with 3 small slots (the 3 overlap and cover the whole surface, but they are quite thin and not the full width of the rotor for any one slot) on each side of the rotor, and on each half of the rotor (180 degrees apart). It's enough to clean the pads off, expel the nasty stuff and make the car stop. It's much different than the 6,8, 10 slot radial pattern you see on most of the stuff in this forum. Those are mostly good for destroying brake pads. It's like running a file across them. Also, they make noise, not a lot, but they create a "whirring" sound when you stop. I never cared, but some people do complain about it. And, the holes/slots tend to generate extra brake dust. All of that stuff they ground off of the pads has to go somewhere.

Many people in this thread are 100% correct about what can and usually will happen on a race course.

The bottom line is this. Drilled rotors can and typically will crack under hard use. Track use is hard use and if the track use is hard enough, they will crack just like the picture of the one I posted (which was cracked on the street). It was no coincidence that those cracks ran right through three of the holes in the rotor facing. With that said, if you don't run them "hard enough", they can work ok. They won't stop you any better, they are no miracle cure, but they can get the job done. I never said that drilled rotors will instantly explode when you drive the car with them, just that they can crack and in some cases throw off chunks of rotor which can really make a mess of things. If you know the risk and decide to take it, you've made an informed decision. If you choose to ignore it and have a failure, you made a choice. I'm just trying to prevent the typical misconception that drilled rotors are a magical upgrade. They aren't. They are cosmetic and only needed for appearances these days.

I might have agreed that he sounds pretty convincing at times, but then he said this:

Heat isn't the outgassing. Outgassing occured with old brake pads when the resins cured from heat and forced their way out of the pad facing and wound up between the rotor and the pad. Much like an air hockey table, this could force the pad away from the rotor surface and cause the brakes to become ineffective. It was commonly called "green fade" and usually after you heated the pads up enough to fully cure them, it was no longer a problem with that pad. Hence the "green" part of green fade, it happened with new, otherwise known as green, pads. That is what the holes were there to prevent. So, it's true that the holes were to prevent fade, but not the fade we typically deal with today.

Today we typically see fade due to overheating the pads (pad fade), but not due to the gas like outgassing could cause. Brake pads have a specific temperature range that they work in. If you get above or below that range, they don't work well and sometimes they don't work at all. So, if you overheat a pad, you can cause it's friction levels to drop off dramatically. This is the standard issue brake fade seen with most modern pads. Or, you can see fade from boiling the fluid. If the fluid boils, it turns to vapor in the lines. Vapor is compressable. So, you wind up putting the brake pedal on the floor and the car doesn't stop. The problem is that you can't move enough fluid to compress the boiling fluid back into a liquid. You'd have to pump the pedal far faster than humanly possible to compress the gas that forms when the fluid boils. It takes far longer to reach this condition, but it can be done. This is why we suggest fresh brake fluid for a track day. Most forms of brake fluid will be hygroscopic, it means that they absorb water from the air. As brake fluid becomes saturated with water, the boiling temperature of that fluid will decrease. So, by running fresh fluid, you can make sure you are getting the highest possible boiling point from your fluid. This isn't so important on a run of the mill street car (though it's a great idea), but on the track you run the risk of exposing any weakness. If your fluid is old and the boiling point has dropped, you run the risk of finding that out when you'd least like to have such an experience.

Secondly, iron conducts and absorbs heat far better than air. If you want to stop the car, you have to turn kinetic energy into heat. The heat is stored in the rotors during the stop (yes, airflow does get rid of some of the heat in real time, but most of it leaves right after the stop). If you are trying to cool a rotor by letting heat escape through the holes, you are wasting stopping power.

Consider this. If the heat is going to "escape" into the center of the rotor, how do you think it will get there? When the pad is covering the hole, there is no friction where the hole is. And, there is no airflow when the pad is blocking the hole. So, the hole doesn't get very hot. It will see some heat that's radiating from the solid mass around it, but there won't be much heat "escaping" into the rotor through that hole. Holes are full of air, and you can heat air, but not nearly as well as you can heat iron. Apparently there is a magical breeze that's rounding up all the heat on the surface of the brake pad and just waiting to wisk it off through those holes to cool the pad surface..... Yes, there might be some radiant heat that's absorbed by the veins in the center of the rotor, but it's ineffecient to try to transfer heat through air instead of direcly to the metallic surface of the rotor. So, that's not much of an option for additional cooling. And, as I said, when the hole is under the pad, there is no airflow, and since holes are lousy at transfering heat (or making any since they have no friction since there is no metal there), once it's uncovered, the "hole" isn't hot, the surrounding metal is, but the hole is doing very little since air can't absorb nearly as much heat energy as the much more dense iron can.

I'm glad that sneaky had good luck with his drilled rotors. But that does NOT make them the holy grail and they are most certainly not a good idea for hard use applications.

There are many in this thread who spend a large amount of time at race tracks and we know what happens or can happen because we've seen it happen. This isn't arm chair quarterbacking, this is actual experience talking and trying to save you time, money and frustration. In the end you are going to do what you like, but we can say that we honestly tried to share what we've learned the hard way.

Anyway, I'm headed to bed. Night!

Sneakyws6

You see I did not take this personal until trackpunk and mitchiepoo started getting all personal with their really immature name calling and great way of addressing people.

If you both are soo much older than me then act like and act like a adult and not some pimpled face 16 year old driving his first rice car with a 4ft tall rear wing and NOS stockers all over the car.

80% or more of people on this board are going to street drive their cars, very few have the money needed to head to track days on a regular basis.

You both get in threads telling people that drilled and or slot cut rotors are worthless for the street and to run blanks, but yet alot of the people running those cheap blanks are right back on the forums talking about how they are warped already and what is the next step. I waqs one of those people that many years ago listened to people like both of you.

Your track expiriences may show and or say that blanks last longer and or hold up better at the track, but I see plenty of people at our local SCCA events and at Hallett running drilled rotors with no issues as well. Unless someone has the fund to run high end blanks, driller, or slot cut rotors then you can only expect a marginally made product to do only so well before it fails unlike its high end counterpart still holds up to the abuse.

I am not going to keep on internet arguing with you two ninnies. If it makes you look better on the forums and or your local forums, so be it. I am a better person than that and it does me no better personally or professionally to act like and *** instead of a adult on a open forum that thousands of people visit. All it does it tells people that a bunch of immature people post on here instead of knowledable ones.

LSgun I hope you got whatever info you need and most of all hope you have fun at your track day. That was all this thread was about and intended for before myself and the above posters when on our childish rampages and hijacked it.

I am sorry it got out of hand and hope you have some fun at your event.

Todd...

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

Hmm, you missed the sarcasm in my first post, I already said that. This little guy was even there to help. After that, I think you've done most of the name calling here.

I guess this might be considered an insult, but it was really the easiest way to say what I meant.

I already explained that this part was a joke, but you missed that.

You then said:

All the while argueing that a cracked rotor was fine and warped rotors are a safety hazard. And you said we were giving crappy advice????

I tried to explain:

I tried honesty:

You tried honesty.....

You started calling names again.

Which caused this:

And you followed it up with this:

You're the one who keeps coming back here and argueing against all of the tech links provided by the brake compaines and many members (not just Mitch and I). There have been links from Baer and Stoptech and I think a couple others posted that support the information that this gentleman is getting from everyone here....but you. I'm glad that your drilled rotors worked out for you, but saying they didn't warp because they are drilled is not anything you can prove. It might be that they were made from a better blank. It's hard to tell.

General info:

One of the worst things you can do to brakes is park the car with them hot. That will warp more rotors than anything else. If you come sliding into a parking lot (late for work?) and just park the car, the caliper and brake pads help to keep the temperature elevated in the part of the rotor under the brake pad. This causes the rotor to cool unevenly. Iron has a high level of internal stress. This stress is similar to an ice cube when dropped into a drink, the internal cracking that you see in the ice is similar to what causes a rotor to crack. After enough heating and uneven cooling cycles that stress can also allow the metal to change shape, or, if you get them hot enough, it can change the iron over to "cementite". It's a change in the structure of the iron that is caused by extreme heat. Cementite is harder than iron and will wear at a different rate. So, if the pad and caliper area holds the heat in long enough for a change of state to occur on that portion of the rotor, you'll have a rotor of uneven hardness that will wear at different rates. This can show up as a warped rotor as well.

Info here:

http://metals.about.com/library/bldef-Cementite.htm

And here:

http://www.answers.com/topic/cementite

Here is a paper from Stoptech (the brake company) that explains more about it.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...rakedisk.shtml

About 1/2 way down the page, you'll find this (but I recommend reading the whole article):

Anyway, that article describes how pads can leave deposits that can help make this happen. Some pads are better than others about it. So, if you're warping rotors and keep using the same brake pads (either the same exact ones, or the same brand and model...but new ones), you run the risk of having brake problems ("warped rotors") with the new parts. The explanation is in there and it's not too hard to read (not written for engineers).

Anyway, that's enough tech for one thread. If you can't find the information here that allows you to make an informed decision one way or the other, it's not going to matter if we keep going. I hope your track day goes well and you have fun during your outing.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Sorry, brother ... you started the name calling. I just stated an opinion about your being clueless as it pertains to what this guy needs. Strike 1 ...

It's also obvious that you will spend quality time penning a long non-responsive response to the links of tech you have so openly asked for, but haven't read. Strike 2 ...

If you go back and read, you will see numerous times we have attempted to draw the distinction between track use and street use. You don't seem to get it. Strike 3

Your sad attempt at insulting me (us) is very humorous in that you can't seem to find that button to spin me (us) up. But keep trying slugger.

Right now, TB and I are just having fun at your expense. It's quite entertaining and will continue till we get tired of playing with you.

MeentSS02

iTrader: (11)

OMG I LUV TEH INTERNETZ!!!!111!one1

DONAIMIAN

iTrader: (18)

Thanks Mitch for the new sig quote, and inspiration for sneakys new user title!

And sneaky, the point of this forum is for the exchange of knowledge and information. If you cant be open minded enough to listen to what other people have to say, and listen to reason, then maybe you shouldnt be here.
(a nice way of telling you to stay out of this thread or there will be bans)

LSGunZ28

iTrader: (8)

Wow thats a lot of info.

Oh btw the Summit slots are very short and only 4 of them, plus there arent many drills on the rotors either, compared to some I have seen. So I should be good on the street, just for looks.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Doh! I just connected the dots. You are the one who bought Cody's smurf TA

DONAIMIAN

iTrader: (18)

I thought you knew? lol.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

I don't have Avatar and sigs turned on. Too much on-screen clutter.

There are a few parts of mine on that car ...

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

It is a lot of info. Sitting around seeing who can yell the loudest and call each other the most creative names isn't going to answer your questions. Real tech information from real experience and real sources that back that up will. That's what we've been trying to provide. It's been a bit difficult, but after reading all of the links that various people have posted here, you should be able to get a pretty good picture of the situation without reading a word that anyone here has posted. All of those tech links will tell you/teach you much of what you need to know. I didn't write them, but they are handy to help someone who wants to learn.

Again, we didn't really say that drilled rotors are bad on the street. Our goal is to educate people that drilled rotors won't make your car stop any better and that they can (under the right conditions) crack. Once a rotor cracks through to the edge, it goes in the trash. That is standard practice for brake rotors. If rotors are sufficiently warped, or cracked through the edge, they are "done". Toss them, start over. Once you understand this, you are free to decide if drilled rotors are worth the trade off they present. They look cool (they do), they can crack (not good), they can grind up brake pads and make extra dust (which many already complain about), they cost more (and may crack and become junk). If you are aware of those issues and decide to run them on a street car for appearance, then you have made an informed decision and I'll not talk you out of it. I'll only attempt to talk you out of it when you are buying them for the wrong reasons. This is an effort to save you time, money, and frustration. Once you understand (and reading those tech papers will explain a lot), you are free to spend your money however you'd like. All we're trying to do is educate people so that they can make an informed choice.

I hope this has been helpful despite the little side trip we've taken.

Jon B.

iTrader: (5)

It's a lot of GOOD info from people who actually give a damn and are not trying to prove an opinion. Hopefully you have figured out who to listen to (people who provide good tech) and who not to listen to (people who don't) in the future.

Have fun at the track.

Jon

LSGunZ28

iTrader: (8)

Yes it has( been helpful), I was convinced since page 1. Just sneaky sounded convincing, and while he is, he was talkng about street performance.

Yes I know that( about the cracking). I did take a brake class afterall. I guess my teacher wasnt upated with teh slotted rotors info we got, or I didnt pay enough attention.

Anyways Its time for manual trans ( 2nd time) and cylinder block rebuilding class next semester!

and thanks to mitch and Jon B also. and everyone else.

Happy New years.