DarkblueTA

On my 98 TA, I had KYB AGX shocks on the car (before I knew anything about suspension for these cars) and had the SLP DD sub-frames installed. It was a pretty big difference. Ended up cutting them out later. Noticed the difference and went with UMI's 2 point sub-frames. Felt just like the 3 point setup.

I currently have a set of sub-frames in the garage given to me for helping a friend out and I will have them welded on the SS. You can see the suspension mods in my sig. I just recently added the STB and PHB. Say what you want about the STB, but the initial turn in is quicker and the cowl doesn't shake leaving the neighborhood with all the dips/bumps in the streets. The rear is much more predictable and solid with the rod/rod PHB vs. the stock bar with poly bushings.

IMHO, I think it really depends on the car and the suspension setup whether sub-frames are worth it or not. Since they were free, I'm going to use them.

ChrisRZ28

It's been years since I welded mine on. I don't remember if they changed the way the car drove. Before I installed mine, when I jacked up the car and let the front down on jackstands (jackstands are under the firewall/frame), there would be enough flex in the car that the backend didn't come up much. After installation, the back of the car will raise up several inches when I let the car down on the stands. So, they do stiffen the car up.

RJDio

I bought the Spohn weld in type, excellent product fit and finish but yes HEAVY. Paid a muffler shop $50 to install them and I didn't feel any difference with the car, none. Am I happy I did it, yes in the grand scheme. But if you are a person that only does 1 or 2 mods per year save it for last.

Regarding Springs, if they aren't collapsing they would prob be okay up and over 100,000. I have 60,000 miles on my 2001 T/A stockers and my ride feels like crap, I think it has as much to do with age as it has to do with miles. Driving over 100mph and it starting to feel squirrely. I don't think is the springs, but putting new struts on old springs doesn't seem right

SparkyJJO

iTrader: (11)

It's the shocks. Nothing wrong with the springs at 60k, heck springs are good for well over 100k unless you're abusing them or wanting the absolute best performance... which at that point you don't want stock springs and certainly not stock junk shocks lol.

Get new shocks at least. That's what is killing your ride more than anything.

ZForce1

I can't believe people are still arguing about this. The car does not even have a full frame. That alone should be considered an issue to be remedied.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

that's just a silly statement. You think cars with full frames are by default stiffer? Geez, a lot of race cars don't have "full frames".

Comments like that make me have visions of a cooked noodle. Look at this video,
http://www.stranoparts.com/videos.php?VideoID=25 if you don't care to watch it all, FF to 50 seconds and watch to the end. That's my old car, it has about 50k miles on it. It's been raced like this since new. It's been wrecked (hit a curb and into a lightpole) that required it be pulled too. Look like it's twisting itself apart?

bayer-z28

iTrader: (14)

^ That looks like loads of fun!

Same here.. Car felt completely different. But like strano said, maybe it was because my spring/shock combo was the suck. Have Koni/BMR now and I can feel the suspension actually absorbing bumps now.

thedeej

I'm new but figured I'd chime in. I've got 3pt. Subs on the way along with shocks, springs and LCA's.

Perhaps we can find a way to test the torsional rigidity with the sub frame connectors off and on. I'd be happy to test any kind of theories but they have to be quantifiable and cannot be based on personal experiences.

I read an article regarding this same type of scenario but it involved mustangs. I can imagine there's a substantial difference between a mustang and an f body in terms of structure but the theory should be relatively the same.

dynobrat

I just installed the slp 3 point today in a 98 with 90,000 miles (144k) and there is a noticeable difference. Big difference. I noticed when you stab the peddle on take off, I could feel the body twist, and now there is nothing. So, I side with them being worth their weight. And I think the best solution is frame connectors and suspension changes, then the car will be solid and ride alot better. The best of both improvements.

It takes more than just shocks to eliminate bodyflex. And if you say you can't notice flex without sfc, maybe you just don't realize what it feels like in the first place? (just sayin' lol) Plus these cars are getting older, it is a wise investment, including added safety.

People can argue all day about the topic. Bottom line is, it's your car, you decide. Myself, after just having them in a few hours, will never take them off. I will replace shocks etc and it will be even better. These cars ahould have been full frame from the factory. Even jacking the car you will reap the benefits.

NoHope

Wow that car is nimble!!! I would ask all of what's on it, but I presume it's a lot. What would you say the single best modification in handling is?

NoHope

I definitely wouldn't know what body flex felt like if it's happening to my car or not. I mean, is it more common on high powered cars? Manual cars? Higher geared cars?

My car is near stock, automatic, and 2.73's...I don't notice any flexing at all when I stab the pedal, but then again, I don't think I know what it would feel like.

My car's weight with 1/4 tank of gas and nothing in it is 3,440 lbs, if I added SFC's I'd be at about 3,500 lbs, that's a hell of a weight gain, unless these SFC's are able to help the car launch that much better that they negate the weight gain.

JD_AMG

Depends on what you consider a lot. Its really just bolt in suspension, no chassis mods or bracing (as you see, not needed) and sticky tires. Its amazing what the proper setup can do.
Heres an article with a list of mods on Sam's Camaro that you saw in the video:
http://www.gmhightechperformance.com..._chevy_camaro/
If I remember right the only thing that has been updated since the write up is he added a fays2 watts link before he sold it.
Also if I remember right the new owner added SFC's, then took them off, as there was no gain from them.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

It's not as much as you think. It's basically my Handling Package 7 with a Fays2 Watts link, a better limited slip unit, and sticky tires. There are other non suspension things, but that's not relevant here.

JD is right because he pays attention, the new owner did buy SFC's. Put them on, then took them off. Since he bought the car to try and win himself another National Championship (he has one as well, and that's a large reason he bought my car car as it was proven), I can only assume if they made the car faster they'd have stayed.

Looks SFC's are not bad things, particularly for high mileage cars, or ones that drag race a lot, or daily get twisted up on funky driveway entrances. And fwiw, the more crappy the suspension is terms of shocks, springs, and stuff like that the more difference you will see from them, period.

Lizard King

I've been thinking about doing SFC's just because of my ridiculous driveway entrance. Makes me cringe every time.

ChrisRZ28

...and a driver who knows what he's doing.

Midnight02

iTrader: (8)

Mine seemed to stiffen up the car however I was on crappy stock DeCarbon shocks at the time. And as noted above, many of the annoying internal rattles went away.

Not sure if I would've had the same experience if I already upgraded to higher quality shocks prior to the SFC's, however I can't speak to that.

BillS24

I've been watching this conversation all winter long. I have a brand new set of UMI 2 pt sfc's waiting to go in my ride but I think I'm going to pass on putting them on and just sell them. I have to think Sam knows what he's talking about. There are other things to do that offer more benefits.

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

I have them in my convertible and my coupe/t-tops (UMI welded in both) -- obviously they made a much bigger impact in the vert, but were also perceptible in the coupe.

I noticed them on the coupe after the SLP Bilstein install, and installed them before the Koni SA vert install. The vert puts down power better, handles better in cornering, and less flex going over train tracks, for instance.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Ok, let me be CRYSTAL CLEAR here. I'm not saying that SFC's are bad things. I'm not saying you might not want them. I am saying that handling wise, unless you've addressed springs, bars, shocks, etc, then there are bigger fish to fry IMHO.

I sell SFC's, have some on the floor of the shop right now in fact (2 point bolt in's in Red if you are interested, about $30 *OFF* since they were previously opened).

slow ride 02

$30.00! thats a steal for someone! The fact that there bolt in's, you can allways take them out and sell em to someone else later if you dont like them, or think that there is something better.