sawedoff

iTrader: (3)

Chuck you got mail.

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

Did SFC's, Panhard, LCA's, 1LE sway bars & STB all at the same time. I could tell a big difference. My SFC's are SLP bolt in's they fit very well and I'm happy with them. The headers etc all fit fine with the SLP SFC's no notching or cutting at all.

I say go for the SFC's and don't worry too much about which brand as long as it's a quailty brand.

Trojan T/A

iTrader: (1)

sawedoff, I am interested and if you could send me some info and maybe a pic that would be great. chutchin@usc.edu Also, any idea what kinda of ground clearance these would offer and a total combined weight?

02RedWS6

mickearley@hotmail.com

Intrested in weight, ground clearance, and price.

sawedoff

iTrader: (3)

Sent you a private message.

jpz28

Ditto Sawedoff!!!...shot me some numbers or ideas although I have a convertible ....any chance a design might be in hand for this....titanium would really....rock throw stuff at me and I'll see ....as far as SFC's go there is little to choose from!!!....i would really be interestd...Thanx Jose

DGOETZ

Titanium ? Hey why not.
Now if you want a professional race car builder to make your car's Structural Enhancements then you are not really in the SLP, BMR, or KBDD league.
And if your not in that league why drive a car that is?

The current market of these products are designed for street use and maybe mild racing.

sawedoff - it is wise to offer a product that is different from the rest. Just guessing titanium SFC's $1000.

I make bolt on SFC's for both coupes and convertibles and I can make them out of any material you would like.
Email me directly for more details.

sawedoff

iTrader: (3)

Well, first off these don't bolt in. Secondly they won't be any where near the $1000 price. Thirdly, they are completely different, than the tubed up jobs currently out there, because there isn't any tubing on these. The aim is to give folks a race engineered part, that is professionally designed, at a non stereotypical price, because I have no overhead. I can get all the different grades of titanium at next to nothing, and damn it, I'm passing the savings on the people that buy them. I'm fully aware of the "mild track usage" status with alot of these parts. That's the problem in itself. Why not make a well engineered part that's suitable for racing, and because it's design was well engineered, the end user can use it in any way he see's fit. He also won't have to sell the family farm to accomplish his goal. If you have any questions, feel free to private email me.

pharmpod

I have a set of convertible SFC's made by DGOETZ.
They are a 2 point design. They fit in without effort or modifications. They are boxed. The steel is heavy and powdercoated. The coupe set is a 3 point design. Either set can be easily welded in if desired. I imagine Don can omit the powdercoating to facilitate welding. I know he has powdercoated them in colors other than black. And his customer support is second to none. He is the only one to listen and produce bolt-in SFC's for the convertible crowd.

Thank you again, Don

Benny

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

Sawedoff,

I think you may be on the right track. But, I have a few questions (these are real questions, not "stirring up crap", meaning, don't misunderstand, I'm not attacking you or the idea, I'm just curious).

How will these attach? I'm not a structural engineer, but I was pretty sure that titanium needed to be welded in a dust controlled enviroment and could not be welded to steel (can it be brazed?, also not sure). I may be wrong on both counts, which is why I am asking. I did find a few links that talk about weld technique and quality (mostly referenced as a mil spec application).

http://www.eng-tips.com/gviewthread..../178/qid/61396

http://www.stainless-steel-world.net...um/welding.asp


http://www.timet.com/fab-p11.htm


http://www.demon.co.uk/cambsci/books/book55.htm

(the one above looks quite interesting).

Anyway, just a few things I found that got me thinking. It may be possible and work just fine (I do mig weld, but I'm not a "pro"), but I was getting the idea that welding titanium to steel is not exactly a "driveway and a 6 pack" job. But, I have found more questions than answers, so I thought I'd ask. I'm guessing that you have reasonable experience with titanium (if you can get it cheap, I'd say you must work with it....at least more than I do). Anyway, I though I'd toss these out...(like I said, I'm on a quest for info, and not trying to be a butthead....I just have in depth questions).

Thanks,

Kevin

02RedWS6

Ditto... I need more info

Thanks,
Mic

DGOETZ

Well, first off these don't bolt in. Secondly they won't be any where near the $1000 price. Thirdly, they are completely different, than the tubed up jobs currently out there, because there isn't any tubing on these. The aim is to give folks a race engineered part, that is professionally designed, at a non stereotypical price, because I have no overhead. I can get all the different grades of titanium at next to nothing, and damn it, I'm passing the savings on the people that buy them. I'm fully aware of the "mild track usage" status with alot of these parts. That's the problem in itself. Why not make a well engineered part that's suitable for racing, and because it's design was well engineered, the end user can use it in any way he see's fit. He also won't have to sell the family farm to accomplish his goal. If you have any questions, feel free to private email me.

[/quote]

I agree with you these parts should be well engineered but to assume they are not because they don't meet your needs is irrelevant.
I would expect a professional car builder to have the opinion you've expressed above.
The current market for these products did not meet my needs either so I engineered my own to meet those needs as you are attempting to do.
Titanium as you seem to know presents many fabrication machining and welding problems but the benefits may out way these problems. But with everything there are certain compromises.
I will say with all due respect I wish well and hope you are successful in your endeavor.
It is the unconventional thinkers that are most interesting.
By the way these cars and parts are being used as we see if as is every other product on this planet.

LG Motorsports

Titanium Subframe connectors can only be bolt in. And to what end. Any bolt in SFC is only as good as the bolts and bolt holes that hold them in , and that is not very good. The forces involved in this area will easily overcome the clamping forces of some bolts.
Titanium cannot be welded to the steel. The word "Titanium" sounds good, but if you read the signature of the guy offering these, he says this,"They call him the March hare, because he is crazier than one".
I think he got that part correct.

LG

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

Lou,

The welding was my concern. I thought that was the case, but I didn't want to say until I could verify the information. Thanks for the clarification. And, I believe connectors should be welded to the car.

Kevin

MyRed01WS6

sawedoff, you've peaked my curiosity as well. Can you send me some info as well?

And are you planning on using a layer of vanadium between the sfc and the chassis to get it to weld?

DGOETZ

A timeless debate weld-on or bolt-on

LG could you please tell us what the forces are so the correct grade hardware can be chosen?
Or better yet what is the clamping force of a 1/2" Grade 8 fastener tightened to say 100 lb ft?
Do the forces exerted exceed the capabilities this grade of fastener?
I truely am interested in these clamping forces.

It is through careful design that includes mounting as a design feature that makes SFC's effective not how they are attached to the car.

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

I hope you don't actually mean that. That statement belongs in a sales flyer for some type of connectors (you may be able to sell it to Kenny Brown). A poorly (or one that is not designed as well) designed connector that is welded will likley do more good than a much better design that is bolted. Someone once said, GM didn't bolt your chassis together for a reason.

In many cases, the bolt will be stronger than anything it is mounted to. Meaning, if the bolt holds and the body flexes, what have you accomplished. Bolts are elastic by design. All bolts stretch, that is what keeps them tight.

There are several bolt in subframe designs that are somewhat effective, meaning, "after I bolted them on, the car was stiffer" (or similar comments). A poor bolt on connector is still an improvement over none at all (to a point anyway). One of the main concerns is the flexing at the bolt holes (not bolt hole elongation, that is a different matter). Steel is subject to "work hardening" (take a piece of sheet steel, paper clip, coat hanger, etc and bend it back and fourth, it eventually will fracture from the "hardening" of the steel at the stress point). This same problem could begin to take it's toll on the steel around the locations of the mounting hardware. You are concentrating a tremendous amount of force into the space of a few square inches of sheet metal that surrounds the bolts. I'd have to do research and see if I can find the torsional rigidity of an f-body (in ft lbs per degree of twist), I've not seen the numbers, but I'm sure it is not real good. Even if the bolts stay tight, you can see some "sliding" of the surfaces at the bolt interface, this sliding action will reduce the effectiveness of the connectors. You need the bolts to generate sufficient clamp load to eliminate any motion between the mounting surfaces. This is a much more difficult proposition than simply "keeping them tight".

When you weld a connector, you use more surface area on the chassis to spread the loads (if you consider that the flexing force is distributed mostly to 1 inch (1 inch is an example, it depends on material, thickness, design, shape, etc...on either side of the weld, there is much more surface area than the area around a bolt). Also, welds do not stretch (not as much as a bolt, almost all materials stretch to a degree). Welds will locate the connectors much better, nearly eliminating any sliding motion at the mounting points. I could go home and dig into a few books and make this a very long post (but, I'm moving this week and the books are in a box...I'll dig them out soon). But, this will cover some of the basics.

"Tight is relative", just because it has 100 ft lbs of torque on it, dosen't mean it's "not goin' anywhere".

Oh, and welcome aboard (I usually only get to have fun discussions like this with Mitchintx).

Just my thoughts....

CHRISPY

You need to factor the amount of stiffness acheived versus the weight gained. I personally like the MAC subframes and other subs that just tie the front and back of the car together without the added weight of the X piece. I dont feel the supposed "added" stiffness is worth the extra weight...

Chris

DGOETZ

Like I said it is a timeless debate.
Never once did I say bolt-ons were better.
The fact that there are both kinds is evidence that not everyone thinks the same.

My quest for knowledge is often times taken as sarcasm.
When statements are made that a bolt's clamping force is easily exceeded by these forces. I will ask "these forces"
That to me is sales dribble. Careful design yes more sales dribble. I do think that design is as important as how you attach these to your car.

Bolt stretching, yes of course, but again I must ask how much force must be exerted for this to take place and at the same time I truely would like to know the amount of force the flexing car body can exert on the said bolt.

These items are compromises whether welded or bolted.
Would you like a stiffer car or the stiffest car?
Why try to prevent body flex in the first place?
We can help to answer these questions but it is the customer that determines their needs/wants for this and all
products. They tell us what they want and we or someone else makes it

Why does GM weld their bodies together? Heard that one before as well. Actually that's when the subframe connectors shound be welded in. Welded bodies, it's the only way to do it and somewhat irrelevant to whether their customer's weld or bolt on their SFC's

The cars they produce have to meet crash standards ours do not.

So in closing yes my comments will have the ocassional sales dribble that is one of my functions. My products are engineered with my customers needs and wants in mind.
Oh, did I mention they can be welded on.

trackbird, In the short time I have visited this forum you certainly have been the most cognizant in your responses and for that I am greatful.

Don

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

Don,

I have the data on bolt clamping loads in a box at home right now. If I can find it, I'll post some of the clamping forces generated by various hardware sizes. I think you'll find the weakness to be what it is attached to and the concentration of forces in that area, as well as the potential for "sliding" motion that reduces effectiveness. I'm sure we can find the data on torsional rigidity of an F-body in lbs per degree, somewhere. I'll have to go look. As for the "they sell both" arguement. Some guys (and ladies) simply won't weld on a new car, so there is a market for "good enough", and that's ok, it is still better than none at all.

Kevin