Air Ride Using YOUR Front Shocks for $350
#81
TECH Enthusiast
iTrader: (15)
![Default](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
![Name: pushrodsetup.jpg
Views: 837
Size: 12.4 KB](https://ls1tech.com/forums/attachments/suspension-brakes/663945d1501791986-air-ride-using-your-front-shocks-350-pushrodsetup.jpg)
That's kind of what i had in mind but with the "swingarm" designed a little different. I know it's just a rough pic to get the basic concept across, but the whole upper mounting surface would have to be as flat/thin as structurally possible to keep unwanted lift while in normal mode. I'll draw a pic real quick, stand by.....
#82
TECH Enthusiast
iTrader: (15)
![Default](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
The actuator end of the swingarm could be moved a outboard to keep fender intrusion to a minimum.
We would have to make sure the attachment point for the strut wasn't to close to the fulcrum, or it will pushed down a little then pulled inbd.
I was thinking about the top of where the strut, (yeah i know it's not a strut but im trying to abbrev a little), attaches to the swingarm. You could even notch out the top of the fender well also for more clearance. I personally would like to keep cutting to a minimum.
thoughts?
We would have to make sure the attachment point for the strut wasn't to close to the fulcrum, or it will pushed down a little then pulled inbd.
I was thinking about the top of where the strut, (yeah i know it's not a strut but im trying to abbrev a little), attaches to the swingarm. You could even notch out the top of the fender well also for more clearance. I personally would like to keep cutting to a minimum.
thoughts?
#83
On The Tree
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Way Out In The Boonies Chasin' Hill Billies, North GA
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
![](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/ranks/ls1tech10year.png)
![Default](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
If you mean having an air bag on top of the spring/shock assembly to raise the car when air is added, then it won't work. It's essential that the top of the shock always be mounted solidly to the vehicle. It is responsible for slowly down the wheel when it drops. If the shock where attached to an air bag then the shock would no longer be able to do it's job and the car would bounce all over the place.
That's why the hydrualic setup would work well. It will hold the top of the shock/spring firmly under both compression and extension. An air bag can not do that. If you look at the Roberuta Cup from above you will notice that the shock goes through it to mount solidly to the car. Only the coil spring is pushed when air is added.
That's why the hydrualic setup would work well. It will hold the top of the shock/spring firmly under both compression and extension. An air bag can not do that. If you look at the Roberuta Cup from above you will notice that the shock goes through it to mount solidly to the car. Only the coil spring is pushed when air is added.
Instead of struggling with spring rate issues, I'm suggesting that you find a rate you like at a certain PSI. Adjust the vehicle's ride height with the location of the spring perch (like on an adjustable coil over setup), rather than with the air pressure in the bag. So now I have somewhere around my desired spring rate and desired ride height right? If I want to raise my vehicle to clear a speed bump, driveway, etc., I just add pressure to the bags for a quick increase in ride height.
What I am getting at is that this would enable us to overcome (somewhat) the weakness of air springs, which is that spring rate increases with ride height and bag pressure.
Keep in mind the only benefit I'm seeking from going to air suspension is the ability to raise up to stock height to avoid scraping my car on speed bumps and my driveway. I am only looking to find 1.75" - 2.00" drop, which can be momentarily undone by inflating the bags.
Here is a crappy ms paint drawing...kinda like mixing coil overs w/ an air spring
![](http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff35/topdownTA/strut.jpg)
Last edited by topdownTA; 11-17-2007 at 05:01 PM.
#84
![Default](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
No no no...I'm talking about having the air spring sit on an adjustable height lower spring perch. The top mount should be no more of an obstacle than it would be when going with any of the air spring setups that you have suggested.
Instead of struggling with spring rate issues, I'm suggesting that you find a rate you like at a certain PSI. Adjust the vehicle's ride height with the location of the spring perch (like on an adjustable coil over setup), rather than with the air pressure in the bag. So now I have somewhere around my desired spring rate and desired ride height right? If I want to raise my vehicle to clear a speed bump, driveway, etc., I just add pressure to the bags for a quick increase in ride height.
What I am getting at is that this would enable us to overcome (somewhat) the weakness of air springs, which is that spring rate increases with ride height and bag pressure.
Keep in mind the only benefit I'm seeking from going to air suspension is the ability to raise up to stock height to avoid scraping my car on speed bumps and my driveway. I am only looking to find 1.75" - 2.00" drop, which can be momentarily undone by inflating the bags.
Here is a crappy ms paint drawing...kinda like mixing coil overs w/ an air spring
![](http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff35/topdownTA/strut.jpg)
Instead of struggling with spring rate issues, I'm suggesting that you find a rate you like at a certain PSI. Adjust the vehicle's ride height with the location of the spring perch (like on an adjustable coil over setup), rather than with the air pressure in the bag. So now I have somewhere around my desired spring rate and desired ride height right? If I want to raise my vehicle to clear a speed bump, driveway, etc., I just add pressure to the bags for a quick increase in ride height.
What I am getting at is that this would enable us to overcome (somewhat) the weakness of air springs, which is that spring rate increases with ride height and bag pressure.
Keep in mind the only benefit I'm seeking from going to air suspension is the ability to raise up to stock height to avoid scraping my car on speed bumps and my driveway. I am only looking to find 1.75" - 2.00" drop, which can be momentarily undone by inflating the bags.
Here is a crappy ms paint drawing...kinda like mixing coil overs w/ an air spring
![](http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff35/topdownTA/strut.jpg)
#85
![Default](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
The actuator end of the swingarm could be moved a outboard to keep fender intrusion to a minimum.
We would have to make sure the attachment point for the strut wasn't to close to the fulcrum, or it will pushed down a little then pulled inbd.
I was thinking about the top of where the strut, (yeah i know it's not a strut but im trying to abbrev a little), attaches to the swingarm. You could even notch out the top of the fender well also for more clearance. I personally would like to keep cutting to a minimum.
thoughts?
We would have to make sure the attachment point for the strut wasn't to close to the fulcrum, or it will pushed down a little then pulled inbd.
I was thinking about the top of where the strut, (yeah i know it's not a strut but im trying to abbrev a little), attaches to the swingarm. You could even notch out the top of the fender well also for more clearance. I personally would like to keep cutting to a minimum.
thoughts?
In order to adjust the ride height up and down the full 8" (maybe we should reduce that?) the shock will need to move 4.7". The hydraulic cylinders have plenty of range, from 6"-20". So lets say we decide to move the shock mount 4" (6.8" of height change) how can we keep the swingarm length compact so it can all fit under the fender?
BTW, I think the lower A-arm shock mount can be lowered a good 2-3 inches to give some more room up top, plus I don't mind cutting out the center of the upper A-arm mount to give more room. As long as it stays under the hood, I'm good.
It may be better to mount a 90* swing arm on top of the fender sheetmetal. The cylinder can be mounted horizontally with the bottom pointing towards the front of the car. This way the arm will rock mostly front to rear and help maintain the 1.7 motion ration. When the upper shock mount moves further inboard or outboard the spring rate and shock valving changes. On the other hand, maybe thhis is a moot point as long as the shock has the 1.7 ratio at it's ride height. I guess it doesn't matter at full drop or full lift. Yeah, I guess it doesn't matter.
Last edited by JasonWW; 11-17-2007 at 07:12 PM.
#87
![Default](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
It occurs to me that this whole setup can be much simplified if I could just get a shorter, fatter cylinder with 3"-4" travel. It could be mounted right on top of the shock with a swivel bearing.
Something like these:
http://www.supplierlist.com/photo_im...e_cylinder.jpg
Something like these:
http://www.supplierlist.com/photo_im...e_cylinder.jpg
Last edited by JasonWW; 11-17-2007 at 10:38 PM.
#88
On The Tree
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Way Out In The Boonies Chasin' Hill Billies, North GA
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
![](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/ranks/ls1tech10year.png)
![Default](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
OK, I'm pretty sure I already talked about this type of setup for the exact same reason. The problem comes from the fact the air strut bag will not slide over a threaded sleeve added to a Koni or Bilstein shock. The only way it would work is if you used a shock with a threaded body and that means a new shock. QA1's have a threaded body, but are not known for their handling performance. I really want to continue using my koni's.
#89
![Default](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
There are only 3 strut bags I know of. One seals up the shock, so it won't work. There's this one, the Universal Air (UVAIR) Aero Sport Single Convoluted Air Bag and then a similar bag from CCE Air Systems, but I can't find much info on it.
Check out page 2 here:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...=541244&page=2
BTW, most struts cars a while back had to use air cylinders, 4" in front, 3" in rear. Now you have companies like Air Ride making the one piece sealed units. As far as I know, these universal strut bags are a fairly new thing. It's very difficult to design them so they work well and will last. I just doubt the market is very big for them. That's why there may be so few available.
Last edited by JasonWW; 11-18-2007 at 02:19 AM.
#93
On The Tree
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Way Out In The Boonies Chasin' Hill Billies, North GA
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
![](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/ranks/ls1tech10year.png)
![Default](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
This thread is getting way abstract....it went from air suspension to hydraulic cylinders to beyond.....so I figured I'd throw this out there in case it hadn't been mentioned before....
Bose (the audio corporation) is developing a car suspension that enlists the use of electric motors on each corner of the vehicle rather than typical springs & dampers. The motors "cancel" the obstacles in the road, i.e. when encountering a dip, the motor extends quickly, when encountering a bump it retracts rapidly. They hope to have this technology in use as O.E. on a high end luxury car by 2010 I believe.
I came across this when I did a report on Bose for school a few months back.
Here is a video on YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSi6J-QK1lw
Bose (the audio corporation) is developing a car suspension that enlists the use of electric motors on each corner of the vehicle rather than typical springs & dampers. The motors "cancel" the obstacles in the road, i.e. when encountering a dip, the motor extends quickly, when encountering a bump it retracts rapidly. They hope to have this technology in use as O.E. on a high end luxury car by 2010 I believe.
I came across this when I did a report on Bose for school a few months back.
Here is a video on YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSi6J-QK1lw
#94
TECH Enthusiast
iTrader: (15)
![Default](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
I read an article about that system a year ago and thought it was a really cool concept. Way down the road for any of us shadetree's though.
Speaking of abstract, how about steam powered pistons that have tiny wheels that pick the car up while rolling down the road. You could have the smoke pipe from the coal chamber exit by your back axle so it always looks like your doing a huge burnout. PATENT PENDING
Speaking of abstract, how about steam powered pistons that have tiny wheels that pick the car up while rolling down the road. You could have the smoke pipe from the coal chamber exit by your back axle so it always looks like your doing a huge burnout. PATENT PENDING
#95
On The Tree
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Way Out In The Boonies Chasin' Hill Billies, North GA
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
![](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/ranks/ls1tech10year.png)
![Default](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
LOL...Gump, you're a damn genius!
#96
![Default](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
I wouldn't say that. I'm basically looking for ways to alter the ride height on the fly to make the car more practical. It was looking like an air strut would be the best solution, but the unknown spring rates is really bugging me. With hydraulic cylinders mounted right on top of the spring/shock you can alter the ride height easily and maintain all the performance of a Koni/Coilover suspension. That seems to me to be the ideal solution. The cost is less than an full air setup, but the weight may be more. I'm still looking into the minimum amount of weight needed to make the system work.
Last edited by JasonWW; 11-18-2007 at 07:49 PM.
#98
![Default](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
If you figure the front of the car weighs 2100lbs (ballpark) then the motion ratio of the suspension = 3600 to the front shocks, divide by 2 = 1800lb each front corner. so 1 ton actuators might be just enough. I'd want some extra strength, though.
#99
TECH Enthusiast
iTrader: (15)
![Default](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Here's some product info for one of the 2000lb actuators i found, it's about 18 inches long retracted,
Standard stroke lengths of: 3,6,12, 18 and 24 inches
Lifting speeds 27" per minute
Fully adjustable internal limit switches are standard clutches.
Potentiometer - optional
12 Volts DC
5 amps
Standard stroke lengths of: 3,6,12, 18 and 24 inches
Lifting speeds 27" per minute
Fully adjustable internal limit switches are standard clutches.
Potentiometer - optional
12 Volts DC
5 amps