transamws6_97

iTrader: (5)

how long are those items gonna be on sale sjm?

Smokin00WS6

iTrader: (4)

I think Im going to go with the UMI double adj. Looks good to me.

transamws6_97

iTrader: (5)

dude the sjm is 10 bucks cheaper and is chrome moly which is stronger and more lightweight....no logic in your decision

SJM Manufacturing Inc

iTrader: (5)

Our chrome moly version comparably is 40.00 less and comes with a bolt kit.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Two points:

The SJM is $40 less CM to CM, but it's bare. No paint, no powdercoating. And it's only $10 less than a mild steel version, and because it's not a lot metal, the weight difference is VERY small (about 1 pound) due to the .120" wall for mild vs. .095" wall for CM.

Mild Steel: http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...D=67&ModelID=7

Chrome-Moly: http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...D=67&ModelID=7

As for the bolts. I have found this to be a non-issue and prefer to use the OE bolts again so I don't have to drill out the two holes you much. UMI machines their own spacers to adapt the bolt to the rod end. I have a UMI on my car without issue or noise. My car as most of you know is a very serious autocrossing car and I've won 2 of my 4 National Championships in it. And those were on 17x11 wheels equipped with R-compound Hoosier and Kumho tires. The car routinely pulls 1.2g or so and can peak higher on better surfaces. Point being that movement is not really an issue.

SJM Manufacturing Inc

iTrader: (5)

I believe BMR is the only company I'm aware of who machines a true one-piece spacer.

The spacers I believe you're discussing designed as many people build are pieces of cut aluminum tube and either cut bronze bushings or oil-lite brand bushings slipped inside of the piece of aluminum. Typically available, these components are generally in English units. Many manufactures have chosen this method to reduce their choice of rod end bolt hole. The problem is if a final through bolt hole is non-metric dimensions, and the bolt is metric, additional noise will be generated. We do not choose to consider this route as mixing a metric bolt with English unit through bolt hole is not advisable. This is why we include bolts with our kits.

Sam, with all due respect, stick to racing not quoting engineering and design. This is not your area of expertise; many times I’ve seen you comment regarding differences between different alloys and structural design from other vendors which were inaccurate. Many famous racers i.e. nascar winners are fantastic drivers, but designing a race component is not there area of expertise. Winning a few races does not give you the expertise in engineering or design. If you are thoroughly interested in engineering, since you are still very young, it may be a great venue for you to consider the field.

There are many vendors who offer suspension components. Many will give good results. I would consider BMR as the grandfather of F-body suspension components. Many are just copying their pieces without the background or knowledge of understanding design intent. Some alter components without engineering background or sampled FEA testing to validate their manipulation. I’ll stop here as I’m not trying to create an argument or change the initial questions asked.

To the original poster, good luck with your results.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Lets not get out of line here. The fact of the matter is what you are aware of might not be what's the case in actuality. And UMI does indeed make their own 1-piece spacers, I've seen them, held them, and just pulled an in-stock PHB to make sure I wasn't losing my mind.

As for what I should stick to, that's your opinion. And while I won't claim to have never made a mistake, I think you'll be hard pressed to find many. And fwiw, you just did when you stated BMR was the only other company making one-piece spacers. Nobody's perfect.

The fact of the matter is I abuse my PHB more than probably anyone else on this site, and have the results to back it up. I don't need an engineering degree to tell me if I'm having issues with my 40mm offset wheels and 12.6" section width tires are moving around unchecked. There is so little room that it's pretty clear when I have any kind of issue.

And I'm not sure how "young" you think I am. But I'm 34.

SJM Manufacturing Inc

iTrader: (5)

No need to get upset Sam. I do not mean any disrespect to you. I'm stating that you may want to be more cautious when discussing a technical issue that may be not your area of expertise. You’re correct; you do not need formal education to see feedback from your car. Discussing technical issues regarding structure, design, materials, deflection etc...This is not area of concentration and it's shown in previous conversations you've written on the boards with other members.

I'm far from perfect as well and of course I make mistakes too (probably even having this discussion at this point...lol). There’s allot of guys making these things now…there may be more that have used one-piece spacers. I based my assumption regarding UMI’s spacers due to the fact I've never seen a picture on UMI's site nor anyone else’s that have shown a one piece spacer. They were made as I've described. Maybe he's changed recently due to complaints. Here's another example of one I just found from what I've described:

https://ls1tech.com/forums/attachmen...3&d=1186060234

Seriously Sam, don't take anything to heart what I'm commenting on. You've won a few good races. Good job!

Have a great weekend guys:-).

EvilBLK02TA

iTrader: (28)

Sam Strano SJM Manufacturing Inc..... Who will win? Tune in tonight at 9pm est on LS1Tech to find out. Sorry I just had to say it. So did the thread starter ever get his PHB yet? Didn't even look

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

We have different opinions. It's up to the customer to decide what makes sense. I'll say you can't make junk and get away with it for long. And we don't have to play games with prices to move the product because it's proven and works.

Assumptions are a bad thing Steve. I try and know my competition so I can give a fair comparison and contrast about the product. And I'm not one to just spout out "that sucks" about a company. Actually, there was a mess about some BMR stuff years back that was insane. Started a whole BMR was junk thread, and I was the FIRST one in there defending them. I don't seel BMR, but they were being railroaded because of a dumb part choice by the customer. Ironically it was a PHB that broke too. But it was the completely wrong PHB for the job, and BMR wasn't told what the use was. I'd defend you the same way, or at least, I would have prior to this little exchange.

It's not rocket science to make PHB's and LCA's. I don't think your CM steel and rod-ends are any better than Ryan's CM and QA1's end, nor do I think they are any worse. I'm guessing you can weld well enough too. The difference here is the lack of coating, and the fact you include 1/2 bolts because you think you should, which is fine. Explain why you do, just as I explained why we do not and leave it at that. When you can put the pounding on a PHB I do (including an accident that bent the PHB, the axle housing, snapped the LR wheel and axle hub right off the axle shaft, broke 2 forged wheels, and destroyed the LR of the car). Then you can tell me how off-base I am. Fair enough?

If you have doubts about the sense of quality and strength we like (we being myself and UMI), you need only look at the UMI K-member http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...D=18&ModelID=7 vs. the others. I had a lot of input on it, and Ryan had asked me for some of it, and accepted some he didn't ask for but I felt should be incorporated.

So..... You can agree with me, or agree with Steve. You could not care. That's your call. I'd suggest if you have any questions you pick up the phone and call us both and see what you think when you talk to a real person.

GMmexican

iTrader: (7)

I see no problem with bare metal as long as it keeps prices down, customer can always paint them themselves to what ever color they wish instead of having to choose only between black and red, and its not like anyone is going to be peeking under my car to see what color my suspension pieces are

SJM i sent u an email

SJM Manufacturing Inc

iTrader: (5)

You keep forgetting you're not an engineer; you have no formal training regarding design. You appear to represent yourself as an internet engineer and because you won a few races therefore this makes you an expert in design. Backing up statements of...because I'm a good driver and run cars hard is not much to stand on. Though I’m quite older than you and have been driving for more years, I do drive well, you’d more than likely beat me in a race. When it comes to design and explaining differences between materials and structure, keep it to the professionals. How did you came to your deduction of why you choose what did... how wall thickness, diameter of tube among other areas affects overall design. It’s not, ‘I think we should add bracing here or fillet there…I think it will make it better. ‘ Let’s tell a customer we did this and it is better than the rest just because I think it is. Spohn makes a very nice k-member, though you bash it stating your design is better than the rest (you would not sell something that you did not like, right?). You have absolutely no validation of differences in strength. You state that due to your intense road racing driving background, you assure that is it better. It’s gone through the tried and true strano test right?

Case in point, you probably could not explain basic differences in FOS of your design and how it can be altered. Why it may be over-redundant, too much weight added to a component that could be designed different and lighter has the same results in the end with similar FOS. Ever attempt to model a component, run an FEA test on what you’ve designed? Ever use a strain or load gauge to actually measure stresses seen on a component? An Engineer or someone with formalized training can do this. Though a SOTP method can assist in validation, it is not the only consideration. This is why we do not have people in the world copying a bridge possibly making it over/under designed for the hand in task. Just because they drive over the bridge, doesn't mean they know how to build one. I feel I’m well versed in computers, but in no way would I suggest to someone how to design a computer program. Sure I do understand basic principles i.e. C++, Pascal etc…and built basic programs…but they may not be optimized or work best, I’d be shooting more at the hip…sort of like you.

You keep discussing how we do not paint our race pieces (no kidding as it’s noted in the description). What about the images that I pointed regarding the design of the rod-end spacers that they are not one piece? I’ve yet to see a picture of one? Is it true that now it’s changed to copy BMR’s spacers too? You make your money from your sales so you’re going to push the products you sell….that is obvious. Using credentials of being a good driver to answer questions paraphrasing you…only goes so far. In comparison to strength to other designs that you’ve had input on…there may not be too many differences as it appears many are BMR copied designs. Regarding differences with this basic suspension component…if the spacers used in the products you resell are now one piece and milled converting standard to metric specs for metric bolts. The end resultant setups will be very close in function with the exception ours may be ~1/2lb lighter, ours are not painted and ours are 40.00 less then what you have to offer. There are other component solutions as well.

This thread/pissing match has gone on far too long and it’s pretty much now a moot point. We, obviously see things differently here – one from a driver’s standpoint and the other from an engineering view therefore let’s call this a wash and agree to disagree. Happy Holidays!

Smokin00WS6

iTrader: (4)

Ok, Sam and Steve, just post the exact PHB you would put on a car that will in a year have 315's and lowered. Just want to see how different your selection would be. Didnt order anything yet. I like getting my **** done right the first time.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Mild Steel--http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetails.php?PartID=199&CategoryID=67&ModelID=7 : $149

or

Chrome-Moly--http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetails.php?PartID=29&CategoryID=67&ModelID=7: $179

I run the latter one on my car.

MeentSS02

iTrader: (11)

I'm seeing a lot of big talk going on about engineering, but seriously Steve...why in the hell would you need to do an FEA on a panhard rod? I still have yet to figure out whether or not you are actually putting your parts through such a rigorous engineering process, as you are talking in generalities. I'd love to see a panhard rod with strain rosettes all over it...that'd be some interesting data, especially on a street car, but that isn't feasible if you want to run a profitable business. A second year undergrad student in mechanical engineering would have more than enough ability to design such a simple piece...

IMO, engineering has nothing to do with this conversation, and as an engineer, I'll be the first to say that what is written on paper only goes so far...the best designs come from rigorous testing from people like Sam. To dismiss his experience is just plain foolish, even if he doesn't have a piece of paper saying he is "qualified" to make such statements.

transamws6_97

iTrader: (5)

do you go to UD or WSU? I went to WSU last year for engineering but left

MeentSS02

iTrader: (11)

United States Air Force Academy actually, and getting my Master's at AFIT in aeronautical engineering.

SJM Manufacturing Inc

iTrader: (5)

MeentSS, the engineering concepts comments pertained to the ability to design a component, discuss stress variations to other manufactures components and reference comparisons to what is "designed" and other manufactures components. I probably didn't need to go into this as far but I already rang the bell so to say. This is actually far from the original discussion of strictly the panhard rod. I believe I brought this up as Sam was giving a comparison to other designs he stated he had input with. The post is so cluttered now with our bickering…I’m not sure what was said without re-reading everything…lol

A panhard rod is a very simple axial-loaded component. Though simple, there are design differences that can be helpful as well as a hindrance. I don't dismiss his experience in driving. He can state he had better results with this or that BUT I do dismiss his references to design concepts and ability to modify a component in a safe or advantageous manor. How does one determine what diameter material or wall thickness is needed for specified criteria? Copy someone else’s design?? Come up with something different, how would he know if it was over-engineered creating an overly unnecessary heavy component.

Let’s state that his rigorous “Ted Nugent” test (ok this dates me…so if you know what this is…then you’re old too..lol) on his k-member design proved that he did not break it during HIS use. Is it too heavy, can it be designed structurally different with different dimensional material or designed different with similar results? He has no idea. He only states to buy his because he triangulated a few extra tubes, added a redundant piece here or there…of course, it must be true as he’s a documented road race driver. A comparison to one bar vs. two whereas I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a cross-bar fail may be futile. Different wall thickness materials used…how can he compare and make those generalized comparisons. So what would you do? If one cross tube everyone else uses is 1.65” diameter with a .120” wall… do you now use two tubes same dimensional materials thinner wall…larger tube, how is this determined what is the best choice. If one tube is good, two tubes MUST be better right?? Unfortunately, many of these guys making these pieces are not engineers, they are fabricators. In his case, he is neither. I believe he is a sales person that is a good driver. Not that it is a bad thing, but many may not be able to properly evaluate choices. SOTP only part of a story. I can site quite a few discrepancies with some designs I’ve seen which are in my opinion overly built pieces with already so high FOS it just creates new problems regarding adding erroneous weight. (Not referencing any particular application as I’ve stated probably too much already)

I respectfully disagree best designs come from live testing only. To shoot from the hip from something you’re guessing “should work” may not suit the job best. You being an engineer should well know, a concept should be analyzed theoretically THEN a test model built with further real world testing. This is why engineers are so important. I’d imagine if you are a current practicing engineer designing/specifying components or materials used for a particular application, you’ve done your homework so that you can justify your results. If you didn’t and your colleague showed that you could have designed your task much more efficiently meeting the same goals with a much lower weight or cost would not make you feel warm and fuzzy all over. On large scale, this could be costly to your corporation.

The PHR/LCA’s are simple pieces. Why are customers asking which is best, what to choose etc? My comments regarding main differences between these simple pieces (since most are all using essentially the same diameter tubing , same series rod end and same chrome moly tube adapters…)…differences lie in chassis connection points or rod end choices. An economy method would be to use the two piece adapters which UMI uses (which are cited though the component descriptions as a zinc coated sleeve inside of the aluminum stepped tube (easily visible as well on pictures)). BMR’s solution was to create a one-piece adapter correctly dimensioned to fit the stock bolts. This is a great solution for the stock bolts. I don’t feel there are any good choices using a stepped two piece bushing and considering using a bolt not sized correctly. If you can fit a ½” bolt in the holes of a company’s rod-ended setup yet they suggest using a 12mm bolt…a 12mm bolt is too small and will create additional noise. I could tell our customers to use stock bolts as well…but I won’t as it’s not best suited.

To the original poster, I’d consider not getting anything at this point. You seem far from even needing a PHR; you may not even need to adjust anything. The improved performance aspect of a lighter weight (hopefully it is lighter than and at least as strong as OEM) component coupled with movement restrictions may not be needed if you’re happy now. Your stock piece may work fine for you. Choosing a rod-ended setup is not going to suit everyone. These are race pieces that are indented to provide the best result and tracking due to restricting unwanted movement. They do come at a cost with transmitting noise to a higher degree. Any other design is a compromise. Using a poly-setup in either poly/rod or poly/poly will still leave the user with quite a bit of unwanted movement. One could make the tube as sturdy as possible with zero resultant deflection under max-load. It could weigh 10lbs, it could be 5lbs, movement will occur due to the poly/rubber bushing…this has no bearing on how much the rear will STILL move due to the actual bushings deflection (not to mention added new problems). Adding an overly heavy (unsprung) weighted component has its own demons. Pay attention to weight of components you’re adding to your car…many times, when you’re adding weight, it can be detrimental to enhancing overall goals. It is not a matter of ‘this piece is a strong/stout piece that is built like a tank’. Unfortunately, you have to leave up the design component up to the manufacture… in hopes he did his homework and is well versed in design making the piece strong yet lightweight.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

What's funny here is that SJM is claiming that there might be some weakness that isn't considered. Meanwhile, it's the same specification tubing and the same rod-ends, just different adapter bushings. And it's battle tested and proven under a lot more lateral load (which is after all the PHB's job to handle) than any drag or street car can put into a PHB.

Here's the bottom line. Who else's car pulls 1.2g week in week out with 2, sometimes 3 people running it? I'm not saying SJM's is inferior, though it seems like he is trying to say that about the UMI version despite the fact they are much more similar than not.

You want to buy an SJM. Fine. You want a BMR? Ok. Any number of PHB's and LCA's are pretty much the same. You pick based on what you feel most comfortable with.

That is all.

2002BlackSS

iTrader: (4)

Wow! It's just a panhard bar! It seems like a little thing to get your panties in a bunch over.

As an engineer - there is seldom a stronger way to connect one hole to another than with the fewest possible parts - in this case a single bolt indeed would be ideal. However, in this application, provided the sleeve's tolerances and material strength are appropriate, it should be more than sufficient for most, if not all, applications.

Granted, I haven't run any numbers or done any testing on this, so my comments are pure conjecture, but more than likely either the SJM or the UMI part would be more than adequate for anyone's application.

Would I prefer powder coating to paint? Yes. Would powder coating cost almost the full difference in price? Yes.

Either way, as already stated, a PHR is not currently needed for the original poster, though if he wants one so he'll have it in the future when it is needed, an adjustable one would be the only reasonable choice. That said, on car adjustable would be convenient, and both UMI and SJM seem to make nice components.

I don't know for certain the stock bolt hole size, but if the SJM one requires drilling a new hole, installation would be easier with the UMI, though the extra effort for it would be minimal.

BMR, UMI, SJM, Spohn, etc. are all manufacturer's of bars that fit the requirements, and they're all about the same cost, based on features. Pick one!