JD_AMG

Ok, all I was saying was my car (koni, strano springs, strano sway bars) handles better than my friends dad's stock C4 (non-Z51).
I wouldn't expect your car to handle better than one though, especially a Z51.

z28bryan

iTrader: (7)

JD AMG I guess I kind of make judgements from looking at who's winning autox nationals in their classes in what vehicles. When you say "out-handle" I think of an autox type of challenge, not even a road race here. It's really the best way to tell what handles better than what, by observing nationals results. You can't really tell by just giving it a test drive. Some cars might feel good to you on the street but might actually be slower on autox times than another car that might not feel as good. I would imagine a CTS-V would feel like it handles better than a stock fbody given stock everything suspension, but the fbody is just faster because of the 500 lb weight difference. I don't see too many people taking the CTS-V to the nationals.

There's a local woman who constantly beats my times in her C4. I'm not like an advanced driver or anything. She probably edges me slightly in driving skill

Also you can sort of use the PAX index. It changes yearly. But even an A-stock car still has a higher PAX index than ESP. It's funny too because the SS and WS6 cars were AS cars until a year ago. ESP was their street prepared class and they have a lower pax index

LS1 seeker

How strong is the C4 IRS? I've heard the caddy cts-v IRS is weaker than the stock 10 bolt.

Mojave

iTrader: (4)

It's pretty stout. It has a Dana 44* center section, same as a Viper, and you can get hardened half shafts if you break the stockers. Several C4 ZR1 guys have put 600+ hp through them with good results. Until you break into the single digits, it usually holds up fine.


*Autos got a Dana 36, which isn't that strong, but if you're swapping it into an f-body, getting the good diff is the last of your problems.

00 Trans Ram

iTrader: (5)

Seems like a lot of conjecture - please allow me to add some real-life experience. First off, what is my car? Well, here's a short list:

2000 Trans Am WS-6
-stripped interior w/full cage
-weight is 2980 ready-to-race
-weight distribution is 50.3F/49.7R, with 49% crossweights
-intake and exhaust mods, probably making 350rwhp and 380rwtq
-suspension is 700lb/in front springs, 300lb rear; Koni SAs front and Afco 7/4 shocks rear; 35mm hollow front bar, 3/4" adjustable Hellwig rear bar; rod-ended PHR and rear LCAs; UE de-coupled torque arm
-brakes are Baer GT+ 13" front with Carbotech XP12 pads and stock rear everything
-wheels are 17x11 ZR1 replicas with 315s all around

No stock car under $200,000 will run faster than me on the track. In fact, I'd bet money that no stock car will run faster, period. During a lapping day last year, I was 2.5% faster than a C6 Z06 (I ran 1:25s, he ran 1:27s; I now run 1:19s, which is 10% faster). I get beat by World Challenge GT1 cars, but I'm proud to at least be in the same class as them (700hp, $170k cars).

I'm not bragging. What I am saying is that the road course is really where this car shines. The F-body has good brakes, good power, and good handling. Given a proper setup, and a good driver, it will hold its own with many Vettes. What I'm saying is, you put good suspension and race tires on both cars, and I'll bet that I can hang with or pass the Vette on a road course. (Of course, I'm cheating a bit by saying that - the Vette already has good suspension, whereas the F-body will need upgrades.)

I'll also go out on another limb. Take any "factory produced" car, and spend $20k on the car and mods. I'll be willing to bet that an F-body will be in the top 5 after a race. I've spent perhaps $50k on my car. But, $20k was off the used car lot in 2002. The other $30k was on mods. However, I've made back at least $20k in selling stock stuff off the car. So, for $10k in mods, I've got a car that will outperform Panoz GTSs, Viper Comp Coupes, Corvettes, and Porsches (well, except that damn GT3 Cup car that gets me by 3 seconds per lap).

will01

Thank you very much for your input. Can you please advise who set-up your car? What you achieved is what i am looking to do with three exceptions 1). convert. f-body and - i know this makes it diffcult 2). pushing 600 rwhp (560 trq). PS I have already achieved goal 2. and 3). lighten stock interior - not gut it (keep the functionality of AC, radio, etc..

Not looking to race scca, just run at open track days and have fun ripping across the track with the best set-up possible.

I work very hard and I want to be sure I can play hard too...

z28bryan

iTrader: (7)

I just want to note that I was speaking of terms of autox when comparing cars and talking about handling. On a road course I would imagine that the CTS-V will probably be a lot closer to the fbody. I haven't really done an actual road race, but the spec drag events I do are a little like road racing and horsepower is definitely a bigger factor in my events than autoxing.

Also note that the #1 factor in winning is experience and driving skill. No experience or skill then forget about it.

00 Trans Ram

iTrader: (5)

Actually, I've done all the work on my car (except welding in my roll cage - got an experienced welder to do that).

Weight is probably the hardest problem to overcome on a street car. You've got to keep interior panels, wires, carpet, A/C, radio, and all that stuff. It weighs a lot. However, you can still do some things that will help.

- Replace the rear glass with Lexan. Lexan chips a bit easier than glass, so I'd keep it in the back. You'll lose the defrost capability, but thhe rear glass weighs a friggin ton (round about 50lbs).

- Get a lightweight exhaust. All the exhaust pipes do is get the gases to the back of the car. If you can go out the side, you save a lot of piping. I used to dump mine right in front of the rear axle, and it worked fine.

- F&R crash protection. When you take off the front bumper, you see a lot of foam, and then some really heavy cross-beams. You can replace these cross-beams with some 2 x .083 tubing and achieve the same level of safety at half the weight.

But, if you're already pushing 600hp, get:
- Koni SA shocks all around,
-35mm hollow front swaybar,
- something like 600f/200-225r spring rates (because the Koni's are coilover-friendly, you can buy coilovers in various rates),
- adjustable panhard rod with rod ends (not too noisy if you get the QA1 XMR12 rod ends)
- a set of 17x11 wheels with dedicated track tires (you can buy take-off Hoosier R6s with 90% tread for about $70 per tire from Bob Chick 843-762-7324)
- a quality, full length torque arm (adjustable ones are more for drag racers, though it can't hurt - you just don't need to adjust pinion angles that much)
- good brake pads for the track (you'll have to change them when you go back to the street, but the Carbotech XP10s will not overheat and cut stopping distances to about 6 inches!), and a good brake fluid (I use Wilwood 600)

Yeah, that'll all cost you about $2000-2500. But, if you do those things, you'll be outrunning almost any stock car that shows at the track.

Of course, then you start having problems out running the modified cars that show up, and you spend more money on your car. Then you start having problems outrunning the race-cars that show up, and you decide you need a daily driver so you can have a race car. Then you have a race car, and you have trouble outrunning the professional teams that occasionally come to your track, so you have to figure out how to beat them (haven't figured that one out, yet). All the while, you keep breaking parts and replacing them with bigger, better, lighter, stiffer and more expensive pieces.

Racing = crack.

will01

Thanks for taking the time to recommend a great set-up 00 Trans Ram!

I aim to have the problems you have outlined in the last paragraph!

Seems I was a bit backwards in choosing my mods: high hp engine + crappy brakes + crappy steering + cappy handling = long hostipal stay. Good thing I upped the life insurance.

Thanks again.

00 Trans Ram

iTrader: (5)

BTW, I re-read my post. The suggestions for weight lightening are kind of a "do all the easy stuff, then look here" thing. You can save a good bit of weight with things like taking out the spare tire, getting a lightweight battery (Odyssey is good), and other things.

Basically, what you want to do is to analyze your car. And, it's much easier than it seems. Compare your car against what may be the ultimate track car of our lifetime, in terms of reliability, simplicity, quickness, affordability, etc. - the Miata. If you can make your car like a Miata, then you'll have a fast car.

Power - we've got plenty. I race against a 700hp GT1 Corvette, and on a 1/3 mile straight, he pulls perhaps 4-5 carlengths. It'd cost $10k for me to make that power, and I'd only gain a miniscule amount of time. So, I spend my money where it'll have a bigger impact.

Weight - we need to lose weight. Our cars are heavy. But, not because they're big. Most of the size of our cars is empty space (once you take out all the crap in the middle). The weight comes from all the crap put on them. Heavy exhaust, cruise control, 8 speakers, wiring, heavy suspension, etc. If you can cut some weight, especially out in front of the front wheels (battery, front bumper, headlights, etc.), then you will do well.

Suspension - the stock suspension isn't horrible . . . compared to a minivan. Some people like to make our car a little stiffer, some like it a lot stiffer. I started out with exactly what Sam Strano recommended for my price range - 550 springs and Koni SAs up front, stock springs and Bilstein HDs out back. I learned with that setup, and slowly figured out that I like something stiffer. My suggestion is to start with something that others have proven to work (you can do a lot worse than following Sam's advice!). Once you get used to that, you can fine tune it to see what you like.

Brakes - our brakes are pretty good. We need some good pads and fluid. But, other than that, they're large, they handle heat fairly well, and they are cheap (the rotors, at least).

So, to make our cars more "Miata-like", we need to lose weight and get better suspension.

hpjunky98

iTrader: (3)

good post

My future plans for the car are remarkably similar...

will01

You have given me great info and checking to let you know I am in the process of buying dampers, springs and brake pads. Looking to attend my first track event within two months.

One more question, did you attend a driving school or teach yourself? Looking to "mod" my driving experience so I don't wreck a good car! LOL!

Thanks!

zlover129

iTrader: (10)

The other problem with our cars is its extremely easy to take weight out of the back...yes this is making the car lighter but its also making the front weight bias worse off. This is also worse for me being that i have an LT1 and heavier engine and the ******* worthless brakes. But it essentially comes down to how much you want to sacrifice. While my car isn't a dedicated track car, its also not forgiving what so ever, the shocks are from a track car and its shows, both in the horrid ride comfort but the fantastic handling, and essentially all i have are shocks and bigger factory bars, the car still under steers but its thousands of times better.

So really it just depends on how much of it you want dedicated to the track and how much to the street. These cars as pure track cars are phenominal, but when you want to keep your heat, a/c, cruise, stereo...all that stuff hurts.

zlover129

iTrader: (10)

Also you have to go to a "driving school" first to run road courses, expect to pay at the very least $200 for a session to get your license...and beat the living **** out of your car

00 Trans Ram

iTrader: (5)

I did attend an Evolution driving school (mainly for autox). They teach the fundamentals. Treat it like a classroom - take notes, ask questions, etc. Then, when you go home, for the first 6 months, forget about trying to be fast. Just concentrate on those notes.

For instance, one thing I learned was to try to run over cones with my inside rear tire. If I failed by going too wide, that meant that I needed to go slower and/or turn more. If I failed by running over it with the front tire or hitting it with the door, then I needed to turn less. However, if I succeeded in hitting it with the rear tire, then I was perfect, and just needed to go faster - the speed will make the car push and that extra few inches will make you miss the cone completely.

So, for 6 months, I tried to hit all the cones I could with rear tires. I would hit 20 cones per autox. Then, after I got pretty darn good at it, I stopped concentrating on hitting them and started trying to drive fast. I found that I was mere inches from cones, while jumping from upper 25% of the pack to competing for FTD.

After that, I started teaching myself. I mean, I began instructing. Nothing makes you look at your lines, your techniques, and your car more than when you are telling someone else how to do it.
____________

Yes, it's extremely easy to take weight out of the rear, and harder up front. If you want to keep A/C, forget about it. But, removing a lot of the dash, the front crash protection under the bumper, the headlights, the cruise, the heater box, relocating the battery - these all help a lot. More work than just removing some carpet and seats, but it works.
____________

Also, look for "track days" instead of schools at road courses. A formal school is very expensive. But, you can go to a lapping day for mush less money. You will want to be sure they know you're a novice. And, you should look for an experienced person to show you the ropes. But, it's easier on your pocketboook.

For instance, at our local track we have a summertime series called "Redneck Lapping Days." It's meant for street cars and drivers to get introduced to the track. Cost is $100 for lapping all day long. If you want to take part in the Time Trial, it's $125. Here's the link that explains it a bit more http://www.geauxfast.com/.