I spoke with sam on the phone yesterday and I believe I def had a few misunderstandings about components of suspension. I know alot about making a car hook, not as much about cornering. So i was curious what order you guys suggest getting suspension stuff done in? At what point do you focus on sitffening the chasis and such.

 

I think it really just depends on what your goals are....you mentioned hooking and cornering, so which of these are you wanting to know the order of upgrades for? Or are you wanting both/wanting to upgrade your suspension as much as possible? Just trying to get an idea of what you're hoping to accomplish with your car.....

 

shocks first. then springs (if you want). if matched properly and are fairly stiff, the shocks springs will stiffen the chassis. SFCs really don't do anything shocks and springs cant do for the chassis of our cars

 

i assume bc he talked to Sam he wanted to do cornering stuff

 

My last f-body would pull the wheels. I dont want that this time. I want a car I can driver everyday get completly out of debt and get into the mini dragsters with my daughter.

I know the next things I need to do is springs and struts since mine are worn. I love a stiff car I have been spoiled with driving a Z06 the last two weeks and I had some Z51 cars a while back. So here are my questions for this car (I know it wont feel like a Z06 ever)

should I be looking at swaybars?
Does the stiffening across the underbody of the car help with feedback?

I know sam offers hollow swaybars and they arnt that much more cost wise, are his swaybars just as good as others or is it just a weight saving thing?

http://http://www.stranoparts.com/pa...ID=0&ModelID=7

Thinking about just getting that.

What is the major difference in the 4/4 and 4/3 Konis?

Sorry for all the questions but after talking to Sam I want to make sure that I know what I am buying.

 

I agree with the above post, about doing the shocks first (and springs at the same time, if you want to swap them out). I did mine a little out of order, as I started with a 1LE front swaybar (left the back stock) and liked how it changed things, so I kept going on suspension. The shocks made the single biggest improvement in overall feedback, handling, and ride comfort.

Subframe connectors as a handling improvement are highly debated. I have them and didn't notice a difference because I already had bigger swaybars, better shocks and stiffer springs. Some people on here claim subframe connectors fixed all their rattles, eliminated wrinkles in their quarter panels, and cured their herpes. I just don't buy that.

4th gen Koni SA's have an adjustment **** on the top of the shock, so they can be adjusted without removing them. They also have a more granular adjustment than the 3rd gen SA's. I have 4th gens and love them.

Sam's swaybars are lighter, which is important when talking about unsprung weight. If you're going to get bigger swaybars, a 35mm front and 22mm rear is a good combo. A 32mm front, 19mm (stock) rear is also a good combo. 32/22 is not a good combo. This tends to lead to oversteer. I ran this for a little while and didn't like it, so I dropped back to the 19mm rear bar.


-Mike

 

Shocks and springs don't "stiffen the chassis" in the sense of making the chassis itself more rigid. They can stiffen the "ride" and "feel" though, I think thats what your talking about.

I wouldn't bother looking at anything until you have some good shocks on your car. It would be like looking at suspension for hooking up, when you have some really skinny tires in the rear, kinda pointless. The biggest weakness with these cars are the factory shocks, as I'm sure you've read/heard, and its the truth.
I did Konis first, then Sam's front bar, then the rear, then his springs in that order.
The Konis made the biggest difference overall in handling, ride, and feel/feedback, I wouldn't own another Fbody without at least Konis.
You probably notice the lack of feel, feedback, and overall lack of stability on a stock fbody after driving a Corvette. This is from the factory decarbon shocks, and why so many of us stress to get good shocks because shocks = control.
The swaybars were a great upgrade when paired together. With the 35mm front and stock 19mm rear the car felt kinda weird, lots of turn-in but the rear was own its own back there. Matched with Sam's 22mm rear the car was back together again, and really flat and neutral in corners.
The springs had the same effect, car was flatter in corners and I could push it to higher speeds.

It doesn't hurt, but again Ill say get shocks first.
Their the best for handling IMO, he uses them on his own car and his wins speak for themself...
Sams a really good guy you can trust that he will give you the best setup for your needs.

 

what exactly is the difference in the 3/4 and 4/4 konis? is that saying 3rd gen front? Is that a difference I will notice in DD?

 

yes. thanks. but regardless, having the stiffest chassis isn't necessarily the best thing. SFCs are unnecessary extra unsprung weight on the car. if you have the correct shock settings/ and spring rates, you do not need SFCs. and in a car thats not IRS, a little flex isnt necesarily bad (by little, i mean so minute you cant tell by eye, nor feel). it has nothing to do with a cars handling

 

The terms 4/4 and 4/3 are kind of slang. Nothing officially numbered like that. The numbers indicate the generation of shock being used at the rear. I'm not even sure how it started being called that, even though I'm the one responsible for making folks aware there was a choice. You'll note I the front number is always 4, because the front shocks are always 4, some folks just write it backwards....

The differences were touched on briefly above. Bottom line is 4th gens cost more, but are more adjustable and easier to adjust (on the car). 3rd gen rears save you $110, but have ot be removed and have 4 pre-sets that you must pick from.

 

Actually SFC's aren't unsprung weight... they are indeed sprung weight.

As for needing SFC's, not needing them, everyone has an opinion. I've never broken a 4th gen without them, and in fact my car does not have them, and has been in an accident that involved a pole and $9k worth damage to the side and back of the car.

NOTE: SFC's are not bad things. I sell them, they have their uses. They are not handling or suspension parts. They are chassis parts. I don't think they are generally the place to start, but at times are needed (a lot of drag racing anyone?) and useful. Other times they are dead weight and money you could have spent on more useful things.

 

thanks for the correction Sam

 

s'alright.....

Just a reminder. Unsprung weight is that not supported by the springs. Wheels, tires, brakes, axles, rear swaybar, etc. Sprung weight is held up by the springs and that's basically anything attached to the body directly.

 

Sam, thank you for taking the time to share your experience and knowledge; I will be reaching out to you soon to purchase suspension parts for my vert - fbody.

Can you please answer a question on shocks, I notice a fair amount of cup cars and other cars on the American Le Mans circut use a brand called "Moton". I was intrested in the club sport version but was not sure if the price of the product produces better performance over the Koni's.

Although I am not racing in SCCA, I do want the best performance when I hit the track and was intrested in obtaining your input. Am I off base??

Thank you for your time.

 

I know that question is for Sam, so I'll leave it for him to answer you. IMHO, you're not "off-base", but I'd like to share an experience with you.

Now, for my case, I never competed in a sanctioning body, so most of my track time was done as a research project with several colleagues of mine on a rented open track. This was very expensive, so I don't know if you're heading in that direction or not. Since I owned G2 "custom coil-overs" that were not adjustible, I went through extensive means to convert them to adjustibles through a re-engineered retrofit through using pistons, shaft, and eyelet heads from a Koni 3012. While almost a perfect fit, it's still needed some modifications with it, which I performed in a machine shop. This added a significant cost over the Koni parts themselves (which were worth almost as much as a complete set of 4/3's). Once the whole shocks were assembled, revalved, and dynoed, I still had to go for several intervals of tracking, shock and spring dynoing in order to find a combination that was suitable for my needs to be precise in an "HPDE" environment. When it came to a combination that was practical for most Daily driving and most Autocross environments, I discovered that after all the money spent in order to shave a small amount of unsprung weight from the shocks combined with the heights and spring rates that Sam and many AXer's use in the 4th Gen F-body, it's mostly big money spent, and really nothing gained AFA overall times were concerned.

My point in all of this? Depending on what you are trying to do with the car, do plenty of research in addition to getting advice from the proven "pro's" around here, because the money overspent could end up being a slight, but siginifcant improvement, or just serve as simple bragging rights. From my experience, I can summarise that what I did was merely "reinvent the wheel in it's same form", however the most I did get out of it was practical application of some of the principles that I learned in my 2nd undergrad.

If I may also mention something as well, I've noticed over at FRRAX that many use Koni SA's (8241's and sometimes 30 1265Sport rears) and some use DA's (8242's) for not just AX, but also ORR, HPDE, and door-to-door RR as well.

 

Don't waste the money. I've raced cars with Motons, Penske's, Koni 2812 race shocks, and so on. Add other cars and you can talk Ohlins, JRZ, KW, and some others to the mix.

In fact the last two years I won in my Z28, I beat cars with up to TRIPLE adjustable Penske's installed.

Shocks need to work, and work well... Some shocks aren't very good, and while you generally get what you pay for there is a point of diminishing returns. I don't believe Moton makes dampers for the F-body, and in fact very few do beyond Koni. Things can be custom made, but if you don't know what you want or need that's just pissing money away. I'll be completely honest when I tell you that the Koni SA's do everything I need them to do, for a lot less money. I own DA Koni's, and don't run them, but if you ant more adjustment, those are the next step.

 

Thank you once again Sam, I will be speaking to you soon and great advice. Thanks Foxxtron, you have been on the road i thought i needed to travel. Great help and thanks again.

 

No problem will01.... I'll be here.