Dal1as

Not much really. The EVO's and STI's are already pretty maxed out when it comes to brakes and suspension. Not so the F-body. Shocks, swaybars, tires, and definately brakes and you will kill them on a large track. On a shorter track with tight turns it would be close.

JD_AMG

Speak for yourself.
Go drive a CTS-V or Corvette.

michaelg589

iTrader: (1)

You forgot Mopar.
Of course they all have their babies (Corvette, GT, and Viper).
I myself would never choose an all wheel drive car for handling. rear wheel drive all the way.
All wheel drie is good for: Auto X maybe, straight line yes, road race no way.

Cap'n Pete

iTrader: (2)

All of you guys who think an STi is only good in Auto-X have never seen them perform on a "real track" .

They kick *** out there too. It's a major **** off, actually .

My car has the Strano setup (springs, bars & Koni's), and as well I have the UMI K-member, which has allowed me to run with -2.5° camber, a decent amount of caster. I run an aggressive Hawk pad on the front, and I've been running Hoosier R6's (road race tire).

It's taken time (and this suspension setup) but I have beaten SOME of the Subaru guys. However, I still can't touch the fast Subaru drivers ... in STOCK (but running Hoosiers) STi's . The handling of them is dialled in. Their brakes are superb, and they can put their foot to the floor in places that I have to feather the throttle to prevent wheel spin or complete rear-wheel-induced oversteer. This is true on the "small" road courses AND the "big" tracks.

HOWEVER, all that being said, I think if I were a better driver, my CAR could probably keep up with them at this point . But as it stands, this year I've been the fastest of the F-bodies in my series (SoloSprint - aka: Solo 1 - in Ontario), I've run neck-and-neck with an otherwise bone-stock C5 (well driven) and one of the fastest cars in our series is not an STi, but rather a "base" WRX (227 HP, not 300 HP) but with a bunch of weight removal, suspension improvements ($$$hocks) and a really great driver .

SIK02SS

iTrader: (11)

i hit the canyons regularly with STi's, i have strano springs, strano sways, Koni 4/4, and LCAs....i run away from the STis. only 1 guy can sorta keep up, but he knows the canyons a bit better then me and its way easier to follow then lead. even then though, i still walk away from him...

all the guys i go with have mods, couldnt tell you what they are though

SIK02SS

iTrader: (11)

oh, i don't remember the time i ran, but it was faster around the Streets of Willow then the STi was earlier this year when i was on worn out GSD3s and 36k on stock brakes. some import mag ran the STi and i beat that time by i think 3 or 4 seconds. but with a magazine, you never know who the driver is and how good he is

SIK02SS

iTrader: (11)

not arguing an AWD car cant be extremely fast around a track, but RWD is proven to be better. not only that, but RWD is much lighter then an AWD system

Cap'n Pete

iTrader: (2)

I'm just telling you what I've witnessed in my series, and I've been at this for ~3 years now.

We can sit and rave about RWD and how much lighter it is, and how much more HP we (LS1's) have than the STi's, but the fact remains, AWD can put more effective HP to the ground, and they have been cleaning house. Doesn't hurt that they have a good suspension, IRS, ability to achieve negative camber in the front AND back, and they come factory equipped with Brembo brakes .

In SoloSprint there are about a dozen different classes, which try to fairly and accurately place any/every type of car, based on HP, weight, and its approximate handling capabilities. It's a pretty good system. Except Subarus (with a "decent" driver) can pretty much clean up whatever class they're in (based on which model of Subaru, and what degree of mods they've done). There are LOTS of talented drivers ... I'm not convinced that every Subaru driver is "exceptionally gifted" ... so why are they cleaning up? They have an awdvantage .

Again, with the suspension improvements I've made to my car, I've been able to put some space between myself and a couple of the Subies that I used to be close to. However, the ones at the top are still the ones at the top, and it's a combination of the driver AND the car.

Ironhead

Ignorance is bliss. Sorry to take away your misplaced sense of superiority but since you don't want to listen to people who actually compete against these cars, let's try this....

Since at least the early '80s, AWD has been outlawed in more than just one professional race series while RWD and FWD were left alone.

Why do you suppose that is?

SIK02SS

iTrader: (11)

sorry, no ignorance here. i'd love to play with an Evo through some canyons. no, sorry, i havent the opportunity to auto-x against one, nor do i race in ESP. I race open wheel formula cars. and i've yet to run the canyons or go to a track day with an equally good driver in an STi or EVO, ie, one that can keep up

great. but the fact about AWD systems is they:

have an increased mechanical complexity affecting their price, weight and reliability

Higher mechanical losses (friction) due to the number of gears to drive (differentials, axles, driveshafts, ...)

The sometimes, sudden character of the transition from understeer to oversteer mid-corner i.e: a lot of AWD cars understeer into corners, neutral in the middle, and oversteer out.

and yes, i have driven a couple AWD cars before. not through canyons or at a track, but i wasnt exactly easy on them either.

for a car to mess with i'd enjoy a turbo AWD, but for a car to race at the track, i want RWD

Cap'n Pete

iTrader: (2)

So what exactly is that XXX HP anyway? I'm sure there are enough straights through those canyons that your power can overcome any handling advantages your buddy's STi may have. Or the corners just aren't a hard enough test of pure handling? Or you've just got more guts than your buddies?

Cap'n Pete

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for admitting probably the most important point ... any car can be made slow by its driver . I witnessed a C6 Z06 post the slowest lap time of the day earlier this year. Driven by a guy who was probably ~60-years-old, and had NEVER taken his car onto the track.

Price, weight and reliability. The weight is the only factor that affects actual performance, and it is apparent that it has minimal effect, since clearly, AWD cars actually DO perform well.

And the mechanical loss??? If it's so bad, again, why do they perform so well??? And why do guys who drag race run low gear ratios, ie: 4.10's, 4.30's, 4.56's, etc.?? They have higher friction losses due to heat, etc., yet they ultimately perform better.

Unfortunately, "text book" theories don't always pan out in the real world. AWD works in the real world.

Ironhead

I can't help but notice that you didn't answer my question.

SIK02SS

iTrader: (11)

bolt ons with a tune. thats all the power i have, and i havent dynoed it so i dunno exactly what i have power wise. only 1 canyon we go through has some good straights, the others are pretty tite.


heres 2 canyons we do the most (highlighted in blue)
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sadd...8,0.30899&z=12

the areas that look kind of straight, are hills, so it's either up or down...not worth going super fast downhill when you have a tite corner coming up

this is the same way, it's not worth jumping on it hard when i have to jump on the brakes super hard a couple seconds later...and my brakes already fade before i get to the bottom of this one without getting on the gas for those extra few MPH here and there
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sadd...,0.154495&z=13

guts? maybe, better driver, yes. there was 1 guy that went with us once and his STi was stock iirc, he kept up with me for a little bit but i slowly started getting away and put a few seconds on him before the bottom

the canyons i can open it up some on straights we hardly ever do

SIK02SS

iTrader: (11)

what you're looking for is for me to say they were banned bc the cars could benefit from it. yes, i have heard that. and understand that.

at the same time Danica Patrick has power steering in her IRL car when no others do....and you see where that gets her..

Ironhead

AWD was banned from certain series because the cars were so dominant that they made a mockery of the competition.

I'm not sure how that could happen since you claim that "RWD is proven to be better". Please enlighten us with your "proof".

AChotrod

iTrader: (17)

Races take place on the street or Hwy. F-Bodies RULE!!!!!!!!!!!


I hate this thread!!!!

kookamunga

funy how they people think they turn better on sloer tighter turns. as an 4th gen autocrosser for the last 9 years all the course designers have to do to kill an STI is have 2 or 3 1 cone u turns on the track and the AWD understeer kills them lol. I can understand the track guys saying that they are super fast as all that stability that kills them on the tight stuff seems like it would really pay off on the high speed transitions.

like most people here it really comes down to the most important part of a fast car and the one component you cant buy, the driver
as far as racing on the street /freeway.... who cares?

nsstech

Maybe read my post again?

nsstech

Anything Mopar is just an ***-backwards design that has many problems; no need to include them