Father's right to Abortion.
04-04-2011, 04:37 PM
#21
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Im in the middle of my ethics semester and TODAY we actually discussed abortion.
1. All Humans have a right to live
2. Fetuses are considered human
3. Fetuses have a right to live.
MANY problems with this. Lets GRANT them to be true (when 1 & 2 are very debateable)
4. The carrying of an unwanted child (rape baby) is a heroic act but not obligatory
5. If the carrier is in danger then self defense (aborting vs dying) is acceptable
6. If contraceptive or the pregnancy is unintentional then the woman has a right to abort
While this does not help with the father wishing against abortionit does lay a foundation towards abortion.
I am pro-life if the parents cannot PROPERLY care for the child.
1. All Humans have a right to live
2. Fetuses are considered human
3. Fetuses have a right to live.
MANY problems with this. Lets GRANT them to be true (when 1 & 2 are very debateable)
4. The carrying of an unwanted child (rape baby) is a heroic act but not obligatory
5. If the carrier is in danger then self defense (aborting vs dying) is acceptable
6. If contraceptive or the pregnancy is unintentional then the woman has a right to abort
While this does not help with the father wishing against abortionit does lay a foundation towards abortion.
I am pro-life if the parents cannot PROPERLY care for the child.
04-04-2011, 04:37 PM
#22
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Without getting political or non-religious, the father should not have abortion rights.
Ultimately, it is the choice of the mother. It is her body and its her decision. Case closed. It's the law.
Honestly, I don't want abortion rights. I don't want anything to do with abortions. The less I know the better. Abortions are not my problem. If a one night stand has an abortion without me knowing of anything. Awesome. If a one night stand wants to keep the child. Thats what happens when you have sex and I am prepared for the consequences.
Ultimately, it is the choice of the mother. It is her body and its her decision. Case closed. It's the law.
Honestly, I don't want abortion rights. I don't want anything to do with abortions. The less I know the better. Abortions are not my problem. If a one night stand has an abortion without me knowing of anything. Awesome. If a one night stand wants to keep the child. Thats what happens when you have sex and I am prepared for the consequences.
04-04-2011, 04:57 PM
#23
I've always felt that the decision should be handled together. Neither the woman or man was FORCED to have sex (usually), but they did. Everyone knows what could happen so no one can claim ignorance. If you aren't ready to be a parent, don't have sex. That's the only way to be 100% sure you won't be put into this situation.
04-04-2011, 04:59 PM
#24
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Odd how the law says that its the mothers right and that the fetus is not technically a life for the purpose of abortion, yet it counts if the mother is murdered thus making murder capital murder.
04-04-2011, 09:12 PM
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A guy who mentions his religious beliefs as a basis for his opinion isn't nearly the problem you guys are creating by freaking out about it. All of the strife in this thread is complaints against him who didn't really cause any problem and was trying to contribute to the subject.
All those complaining because he mentioned he's a Christian ARE the problem here, not your perceived one.
Vernon
All those complaining because he mentioned he's a Christian ARE the problem here, not your perceived one.
Vernon
04-04-2011, 09:20 PM
#28
Abortion is murder. That is my stance.
Regardless of what your beliefs are, the argument is basically whether or not to treat a fetus as a child. According to the debate, abortion might be murder. Whether pro-lifers are right or wrong, not aborting children is never murder.
This is a topic that will never reach a good resolution. Sex outside of marriage is wrong, therefore children outside of marriage is wrong, and therefore this situation was never meant to be. It's screwed up from the start, and there is no good way to make it right.
Looking at it from a strictly legal perspective, the father has no rights. We have to assume that abortion is legal in this scenario, and given that, the fetus is legally not a life. It's part of the mother's body... just some foreign tissue. The father has absolutely no legal right to it at all. It would be like claiming that you legally own a woman's foot, and you want it back. It's never going to fly. The only way fathers would ever have legal rights is if the fetus was legally declared to be a life (which the mother could not own), but at that point abortion wouldn't remain legal.
Regardless of what your beliefs are, the argument is basically whether or not to treat a fetus as a child. According to the debate, abortion might be murder. Whether pro-lifers are right or wrong, not aborting children is never murder.
This is a topic that will never reach a good resolution. Sex outside of marriage is wrong, therefore children outside of marriage is wrong, and therefore this situation was never meant to be. It's screwed up from the start, and there is no good way to make it right.
Looking at it from a strictly legal perspective, the father has no rights. We have to assume that abortion is legal in this scenario, and given that, the fetus is legally not a life. It's part of the mother's body... just some foreign tissue. The father has absolutely no legal right to it at all. It would be like claiming that you legally own a woman's foot, and you want it back. It's never going to fly. The only way fathers would ever have legal rights is if the fetus was legally declared to be a life (which the mother could not own), but at that point abortion wouldn't remain legal.
Do you yourself believe sex before marriage is wrong or were you just saying that as in stating what other people will say? I personally am not for waiting until marriage at all, but that's an issue that you can't try to argue to change someone elses mind about, that's a matter of personal preference really. I wouldn't call it "wrong" though
If a fetus has no life, no brain, no consciousness, no breathing, no heatbeat, no fingernails even, how are your murdering it if there is no life in which to murder? Crude example here but it's like cracking open an egg. You're not murdering a baby bird, there's no life in it to begin with it kill. No debate IMO
Man I wish Fathers could have some rights to Abortion but I cannot find any ethical ways in which they could exercise these rights.
Ill show you guys an interesting story later about this, a guy I know on another forum is having QUITE a problem with this right now
04-04-2011, 10:33 PM
#31
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Aside from the fact that in a few months that foreign tissue will become a serious financial and personal life changing responsibility and the father will be legally bound to it even if he chooses not to be around for the kid's life.
Do you yourself believe sex before marriage is wrong or were you just saying that as in stating what other people will say? I personally am not for waiting until marriage at all, but that's an issue that you can't try to argue to change someone elses mind about, that's a matter of personal preference really. I wouldn't call it "wrong" though
If a fetus has no life, no brain, no consciousness, no breathing, no heatbeat, no fingernails even, how are your murdering it if there is no life in which to murder? Crude example here but it's like cracking open an egg. You're not murdering a baby bird, there's no life in it to begin with it kill. No debate IMO
Man I wish Fathers could have some rights to Abortion but I cannot find any ethical ways in which they could exercise these rights.
Ill show you guys an interesting story later about this, a guy I know on another forum is having QUITE a problem with this right now
Do you yourself believe sex before marriage is wrong or were you just saying that as in stating what other people will say? I personally am not for waiting until marriage at all, but that's an issue that you can't try to argue to change someone elses mind about, that's a matter of personal preference really. I wouldn't call it "wrong" though
If a fetus has no life, no brain, no consciousness, no breathing, no heatbeat, no fingernails even, how are your murdering it if there is no life in which to murder? Crude example here but it's like cracking open an egg. You're not murdering a baby bird, there's no life in it to begin with it kill. No debate IMO
Man I wish Fathers could have some rights to Abortion but I cannot find any ethical ways in which they could exercise these rights.
Ill show you guys an interesting story later about this, a guy I know on another forum is having QUITE a problem with this right now
Would be a great source for my essay
04-04-2011, 11:05 PM
#32
I don't know if you'll want it, it's pretty crude info haha
I asked him some questions, here we his answers, should be easy to figure out what I asked
ok well i been dating this girl for a year and 2 months, 6 months in she gets pregs, ok scary not that big a deal though. 4 months after she miscarries (hate to say but god saved me), she all sad and **** cause she was attached to it mentally, i really wasnt was busy with work. she got crazy wanted a tattoo of her unborn babys name (yea we had a name). anyways i debate on breakin up with her due to her craziness, but i was beta and couldnt hurt her, anyways 4 months after that she has a doc appointment with blood tests and **** test, doc phones her and says come in on monday we needa chat. so im pissing my pants she better not be pregnant.... at this point i realize that k im wasting my fkin time with this bish if shes not preg im gonna leave her ***. well monday comes, and of course shes knocked up.... again....
the worst part, i think she did it on purpose; never seen her take her b/c (i asked her everyday if she took it, she said ya) and shes all happy that shes preg. so now im all like **** my life im having a kid with a bitch i cant stand anymore. lesson learned i guess...
the worst part, i think she did it on purpose; never seen her take her b/c (i asked her everyday if she took it, she said ya) and shes all happy that shes preg. so now im all like **** my life im having a kid with a bitch i cant stand anymore. lesson learned i guess...
kept phucking cause im an idiot and didnt learn from my mistake.
i didnt see her take it but she said she did so i believed her.
im 21
shes 5 weeks
no she was gonna but then she got pregs and u cant get tattoos when preg
no idea what tests, it was blood and urine test at the docs office
she just texted me congratz daddy. her reaction was kinda whatever. not excited not sad or pissed, just whatever
she did post on her facebook the other day; "Can't wait for my future! Just me, my wonderful man and a freaken awesome present"
shes 18, 19 in june
i didnt see her take it but she said she did so i believed her.
im 21
shes 5 weeks
no she was gonna but then she got pregs and u cant get tattoos when preg
no idea what tests, it was blood and urine test at the docs office
she just texted me congratz daddy. her reaction was kinda whatever. not excited not sad or pissed, just whatever
she did post on her facebook the other day; "Can't wait for my future! Just me, my wonderful man and a freaken awesome present"
shes 18, 19 in june
04-04-2011, 11:59 PM
#34
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04-05-2011, 01:29 AM
#35
Im still at a loss how people get "oops" pregnant. PULL OUT DUMBASS!! After losing my daughter Ella the end of January I cant see how anyone could have an abortion. Even now though I feel its her choice and only her choice. She is the only one with her exact emotions/feelings. The guy had his chance to exercise his rights when he decided to have/not have sex with her.
04-05-2011, 01:54 AM
#36
Yeah she did, big time. I'm not sure if I'd be more scared or more pissed if that happened to me. Probably pissed because I'd be pissed at myself just as much as at her.
I honestly, and read this whole paragraph before you think of what to say back to me with, think I would tell her (assuming she's 18 and 3 years younger than me) that I plan to have no part in that kid's life and she will be raising that baby on her own and I plan on bouncing if she doesn't reconsider an abortion. I would tell her that anything between us is forever over and there will be no happy future. She will be lost and have no one to turn to and that baby will grow up not knowing it's dad.
If that doesn't work then I'd try begging. If that doesn't work then I guess I'd wait till the time comes and man up and take responsibility and be there for that kid no matter what. I would never ever actually bounce on the kid though I wouldn't stay with the mom. I'd be a part of the kid's life, just not with the mom for ******* me over like that.
And don't anybody say "Well that's your own damn fault, if you wanna **** be prepared for the consequences"
**** off with that noise, the vast majority of ppl in this world have sex before marriage and for pleasure, it's not just a means of reproducing and that's the end of it. I realize it's a risk, but so is crashing your car everytime you go out to drive it, **** happens. I realize there's a difference between a car and a kid, but let's not delve into the technicalities ok?
I'm still not sure if I would ACTUALLY say those things to a girl but at that young of an age and if I'm scared/desperate enough, who knows. I'm too young to begin fathom having a kid, I know I'll be ready for fatherhood when the thought of it doesn't mind rape me to death and fill me with fear
I honestly, and read this whole paragraph before you think of what to say back to me with, think I would tell her (assuming she's 18 and 3 years younger than me) that I plan to have no part in that kid's life and she will be raising that baby on her own and I plan on bouncing if she doesn't reconsider an abortion. I would tell her that anything between us is forever over and there will be no happy future. She will be lost and have no one to turn to and that baby will grow up not knowing it's dad.
If that doesn't work then I'd try begging. If that doesn't work then I guess I'd wait till the time comes and man up and take responsibility and be there for that kid no matter what. I would never ever actually bounce on the kid though I wouldn't stay with the mom. I'd be a part of the kid's life, just not with the mom for ******* me over like that.
And don't anybody say "Well that's your own damn fault, if you wanna **** be prepared for the consequences"
**** off with that noise, the vast majority of ppl in this world have sex before marriage and for pleasure, it's not just a means of reproducing and that's the end of it. I realize it's a risk, but so is crashing your car everytime you go out to drive it, **** happens. I realize there's a difference between a car and a kid, but let's not delve into the technicalities ok?
I'm still not sure if I would ACTUALLY say those things to a girl but at that young of an age and if I'm scared/desperate enough, who knows. I'm too young to begin fathom having a kid, I know I'll be ready for fatherhood when the thought of it doesn't mind rape me to death and fill me with fear
04-05-2011, 02:26 AM
#37
Yeah she did, big time. I'm not sure if I'd be more scared or more pissed if that happened to me. Probably pissed because I'd be pissed at myself just as much as at her.
I honestly, and read this whole paragraph before you think of what to say back to me with, think I would tell her (assuming she's 18 and 3 years younger than me) that I plan to have no part in that kid's life and she will be raising that baby on her own and I plan on bouncing if she doesn't reconsider an abortion. I would tell her that anything between us is forever over and there will be no happy future. She will be lost and have no one to turn to and that baby will grow up not knowing it's dad.
If that doesn't work then I'd try begging. If that doesn't work then I guess I'd wait till the time comes and man up and take responsibility and be there for that kid no matter what. I would never ever actually bounce on the kid though I wouldn't stay with the mom. I'd be a part of the kid's life, just not with the mom for ******* me over like that.
And don't anybody say "Well that's your own damn fault, if you wanna **** be prepared for the consequences"
**** off with that noise, the vast majority of ppl in this world have sex before marriage and for pleasure, it's not just a means of reproducing and that's the end of it. I realize it's a risk, but so is crashing your car everytime you go out to drive it, **** happens. I realize there's a difference between a car and a kid, but let's not delve into the technicalities ok?
I'm still not sure if I would ACTUALLY say those things to a girl but at that young of an age and if I'm scared/desperate enough, who knows. I'm too young to begin fathom having a kid, I know I'll be ready for fatherhood when the thought of it doesn't mind rape me to death and fill me with fear
I honestly, and read this whole paragraph before you think of what to say back to me with, think I would tell her (assuming she's 18 and 3 years younger than me) that I plan to have no part in that kid's life and she will be raising that baby on her own and I plan on bouncing if she doesn't reconsider an abortion. I would tell her that anything between us is forever over and there will be no happy future. She will be lost and have no one to turn to and that baby will grow up not knowing it's dad.
If that doesn't work then I'd try begging. If that doesn't work then I guess I'd wait till the time comes and man up and take responsibility and be there for that kid no matter what. I would never ever actually bounce on the kid though I wouldn't stay with the mom. I'd be a part of the kid's life, just not with the mom for ******* me over like that.
And don't anybody say "Well that's your own damn fault, if you wanna **** be prepared for the consequences"
**** off with that noise, the vast majority of ppl in this world have sex before marriage and for pleasure, it's not just a means of reproducing and that's the end of it. I realize it's a risk, but so is crashing your car everytime you go out to drive it, **** happens. I realize there's a difference between a car and a kid, but let's not delve into the technicalities ok?
I'm still not sure if I would ACTUALLY say those things to a girl but at that young of an age and if I'm scared/desperate enough, who knows. I'm too young to begin fathom having a kid, I know I'll be ready for fatherhood when the thought of it doesn't mind rape me to death and fill me with fear
04-05-2011, 05:02 AM
#38
Talked the guy again, he told her that his mom and sister said she's extremely rude and disrespectful for doing this and they got in a fight and they hadn't spoken in a few hours. I told him that to be blunt, he still looks fairly fucked.
He did add that the pregnancy is not as far along as they thought though so that at least buys him some time. Man I wouldn't be able to sleep right if I was in his position
04-05-2011, 07:47 AM
#39
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To those of you who accuse me of "crusading" and "brow beating," etc, I think that you don't like to hear what I have to say and are responding unfairly. My original post was basically two things... first, to give my point of view, and second, to explain the law (which is in direct conflict with my beliefs). I didn't want my explanation of the law to give people the impression that I believed something that I do not. Otherwise, I wouldn't have mentioned my beliefs. Then, someone responded scoffing at my statement that sex before marriage was wrong. I pointed out that I'm a Christian as my one-sentence explanation for that belief. If this is "brow beating" or "crusading," then those terms are a lot more inclusive than I realized.
Do you realize how early there is a heartbeat? They have a regular heartbeat by the 6th week. The brain begins developing earlier. By some ridiculously early age they have all their organs (not mature, but they exist). I want to say our sonographer told us it was 12 weeks or something crazy like that. Most states allow abortion up to 14 weeks.
Also, it's really all about the potential for life. It's hard for anyone to argue one way or the other when life actually begins, but the potential for life is being snuffed out at the very least. The egg I eat for breakfast has no potential for life as it's not fertilized.
Yes, I believe that (per the Bible). My wife and I waited for 6.5 years (dated in high school, married after college). It wasn't easy. 
Aside from the fact that in a few months that foreign tissue will become a serious financial and personal life changing responsibility and the father will be legally bound to it even if he chooses not to be around for the kid's life.
...
If a fetus has no life, no brain, no consciousness, no breathing, no heatbeat, no fingernails even, how are your murdering it if there is no life in which to murder? Crude example here but it's like cracking open an egg. You're not murdering a baby bird, there's no life in it to begin with it kill. No debate IMO
...
If a fetus has no life, no brain, no consciousness, no breathing, no heatbeat, no fingernails even, how are your murdering it if there is no life in which to murder? Crude example here but it's like cracking open an egg. You're not murdering a baby bird, there's no life in it to begin with it kill. No debate IMO
Also, it's really all about the potential for life. It's hard for anyone to argue one way or the other when life actually begins, but the potential for life is being snuffed out at the very least. The egg I eat for breakfast has no potential for life as it's not fertilized.
Do you yourself believe sex before marriage is wrong or were you just saying that as in stating what other people will say? I personally am not for waiting until marriage at all, but that's an issue that you can't try to argue to change someone elses mind about, that's a matter of personal preference really. I wouldn't call it "wrong" though