wrencher

iTrader: (2)

Exactly , a decent place w/ a good manager & advisor knows better & doesn't cut your throat.
There are alot of these shops out there ,dont supprt them.
If they are continued to be run in that manner(same management) they will take care of themselfs.
Seen it.

2002WS6_MN6

I don't mean to knock the trade at all. I do mean to knock the flat rate pay system. It is fundamentally flawed.

I'd much rather be working on cars then computers..

BTW- the guy next to me was an A tech making $28/hr. I was making $19/hr. I was young.. 23yrs old and fairly new to the business. I started as a "C" and in 3 years was a low paid "A".. Probably the worst place to be.. Get "A" work for "B" pay...

I'm now 29yrs old and those days are behind me...

Pete2k_Z28

I wouldn't say the "system" is flawed, but like anything it comes down to the people who control it. If you were only making $19 as an "A" tech, and other "A" techs were making $28, that has nothing to do with flat rate. You could get screwed just as royally as an hourly employee. I can, and have, and never will again. That's the advantage to moving around in the first few years in a trade. You can almost always go somewhere else and get $1-$2 an hour more. It's generally a lot easier to get hired for more money somewhere else than to be advanced in pay where you are. IMO an "A" tech, that actually can and does actual "A" work and didn't just read the book and pass the tests, should be making no less than $23/hour.



BTW I just noticed you're local, what shop was that at? I'll have to make it a point never to work there...

2002WS6_MN6

I worked at Jim Curley.
This was a long time ago.. I think they've been through a few rounds of writers and service managers since I've been there. Maybe things improved since.. The Tech's when I were there are still there (for the most part).

Like you said I probably should have moved around in the beginning.. But it was more then money that made me leave the trade..

Pete2k_Z28

Yeah, Jim Curley hasn't changed from what I hear. I worked with a guy who was there about 9 months. He was a decent tech, but had no ASE's. They kept promising him "B" rate after he got certified, and 6 months later they still didn't advance him. He was still doing PDI's and LOF's. They kept telling him "we don't have another opening yet". Ok, that's fair enough but don't string the guy along. If there's nowhere for him to advance to, just tell him so he can move on with his life.

He said the same thing, the guys there have been there since the beginning of time and are never leaving. Thus, he was going to be an oil changer forever.

On an unrelated note our GM/Co-Owner had a meeting with us (techs) today, and plans on making serious changes to service. He's promising we'll ALL make $20,000+ more in the next year. We kick some serious *** in the front end, lets hope he can pull it off in the shop too and he's not just blowing smoke up our asses.

Fingers are crossed.....

Bimmer Tech

iTrader: (1)

As far as money on tools, I spent around $12k my first year as a BMW tech. This year, being my 2nd, I spent around $9000 more, with $3k of it being for a new tool box. Another year of spending should get me where I need to be tool wise. For schooling, I started out at Wyoming Tech for 9 months for their automotive and street rod couses. BMW picked me up there, and I went through 6 more months of BMW specialized training. When in school, definitely take avantage of the 1/2 off Snap On special. Most employers will also float you a loan if you're fresh out of school to help get you going. Let em know if you have any questions. Hope this helps.

-Chuck
chukjagr@hotmail.com

Excal

That is ALOT of money...so working at a BMW dealership you spent 21k on tools?

snap-on has a half off deal for students or is is just wyotech?

I'd heard that they want you to have a "basic set" and they had all the specialty tools you may need...but 21k is like paying tuition again.

The specialized training...was this "STEP"?

how hard was it to get into?

Bimmer Tech

iTrader: (1)

Kinda...when I graduated from BMW's STEP program, the dealership I went into floated me a loan for $5000 to use to take advantage of the half-off deal (all tech students get the deal), of that $5k, I had to pay the dealership back $2500 in the first year or $50/week. As long as I worked for them for two years, they took care of the other $2500. So that's $10k of tools to start out with, minding that I was starting from absolute nothing tool wise. After that, I spent about $100/week on tools for the first year. For my second year, I spent in bulk, using a loan I got from the Snap-On dealer to get everything I wanted upfront, and now I pay him back as much as I can every week.

How much you spend on tools really depends on what brand and what size dealership you work on/for. If you are working for a larger place then they may split the techs into different groups like driveability, interior, accesories, electrical, in which you wouldn't need all that many tools. I have to be able to work on every component in a BMW, so it is best for me to have a large variety of tools.

$21k is actually not that bad tool wise for a tech...some techs spend $10-12k on just their tool box, and $100-125k on the tools in it, if they've been a tech for 15-20 years. Also, a brand like GM, you'll need standard and metric of everything...I don't. That really adds up quick.

STEP ( Student Technican Entrance Program) wasn't too difficult to get in to, just had good grades in tech school and had to take a test for BMW (not on BMWs) and go through an interview. It's a very demanding school with a lot of info to absorb in six months. My books from it stack about 2 feet tall.

Any more questions, just let me know.

-Chuck
chukjagr@hotmail.com

Excal

okay STEP seems to be what i expected...

Now they say things like, you'll start at a certain level ect ect...Do you feel it was a good advantage? or that you (and your pay) will rise at a better rate?

Did you buy tools as you felt you needed to, or to keep up with the other techs or what?

the school i'm going to factors in 800 bucks for a set in the tuition, doesn't seem too special, and it comes with a meter that you have to pay for separate. Looks lke basic sockets and stuff.

The admission guy told me, dealerships usually want you to have a "basic" set, and they have all the specialty stuff you need. I didn't believe him for a bit. how is it really?

How do you feel about BMW as an employer compared to other makes?

wrencher

iTrader: (2)

This is true.
I've worked at a few places GM & + non GM shops & that is the norm.
Most places get tools sent to them as a mandatory service set.
This happens constantly every year.
They have alot of specialty service tools, if they made me buy them I'd get out of the field.

Bimmer Tech

iTrader: (1)

After graduating from STEP, I was considered a Level 1 Diagnostic tech, which is one step below Master Tech. For BMW, as long as you are up to date in training, they consider you a master after 5 years in the BMW field.
If I was to start from scratch at a BMW shop, it would take 5-7 years to become a Level 1 Tech because of all the classes and training it requires...so yeah, it was definitely a good choice for me. As for pay, all the guys (7 total)I work with are either Level 1 Diag or Master Techs, we pool our hours and the Level 1s get paid the same and Masters get $2 more a flat hour. Don't believe them when they say you'll make $100k a year though, that's what they told me and not even the Masters make that much here.

Tool wise, a "basic" set will work, but most of the tools I purchased are to make jobs alot easier and faster. Example: I have 14 ratches for 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2" drive...differnet lengths, flex heads, bent handles, etc...I've also spent alot of money on tools that I only use on one or two kinds of jobs...I don't use them that often, but it makes it a hell of a lot easier when I do need them. Air tools aren't cheap either, and most basic sets won't include any...same goes for torque wrenches.

-Chuck
chukjagr@hotmail.com

Excal

yeah i'm definetly liking Step, if for some reason i don't get in then i would consider some other make specific training, rather than start at the bottom.

Yeah i got fed that line about "100k techs at Benz" or whatever, but being the grounded person that i am, not for a sec did i consider that. I believe there are SOME ni the profession who make that but i'm not expecting anything near and that is fine for now.

I guess it all depends on the hours you manage to get. I guess i'll be buying as i encounter stuff depending on what i'm assigned to.

Do you work in teams/sections or is it more of a random thing? How's the work enviroment, as far as competition or bad blood because of assignments or whatever?

They say that they pay 15-18 an hour for step graduates to begin with, And that's fine, i'm a beginner...i'm sure i'll be pissed when i'm the vet and new kids come in making much more than me when i started.

don

ok,for all the upcoming techs and people thinking about the trade,here is some advice.
first,i've been a tech,now 23 years[i've been around],i am ase certified[a1-a8,l1,x1,and ase partsman],and presently cert'ed as a audi "master".i have worked for gm[caddy,chevy,pontiac,olds,saab],bmw,alfa romeo,bmw,british leyland,fiat,lancia,ford[never worked for chrysler?].most of my years have been in a dealership,but spent 2 years in a private shop[working on anything and everything!].when i started out,i think it was at the best as carb's were still being used and fuel injection was just coming out[i'm that old?].
my biggest peice of advice is don't be narrow minded.all cars are/run the same,all are 4-stroke,reciprocating engines,stop the same,etc.just each manufacture will change or add something or call a part something different than another manufacture,but they do the same thing.what i'm trying to say
is read/educate yourself[don't rely on someone].read about the older stuff and work your way up.once you learn about the older stuff the newer systems will begin to make sense.try and get to know someone in your neighborhood who knows about cars[perferably someone who wrenches for a living],if they know their stuff you will learn a great deal[i did!].read about all cars[domestic/foreign{european/asian}],if you can get your hands on factory manuals,most are very good[the ones made for the dealers by helm are great].go to barnes&noble or borders and get a automotive encyclopedia[try to bring someone with you who knows,as some encyclopedias are bla-bla].they are great for learning the theory and operation of every component in a car[from internal engine all the way to electronic systems].
for tech schools,this is a tuff one.presently i'm a foreman[i still spin a wrench though]for my dealer.for the record i presently have gone through 3 "audi trained" u.t.i. guys.all weren't very good/talented but i don't think it was because of them,i blame their instructors.all 3 had no clue on basic mechanics.all they could do is recite audi's repair procedures,yet couldn't do anything with it.i meet most of the applicant's when they apply at the dealer,and i give them my own test[on basic mechanics/theory],most fail.in my opinion i would stay away from these "nationwide" schools[u.t.i.,apex,etc.].the only "nationwide" one i do like is lincoln tech.i have 2 guys from there and they are coming along .when they came out of lti,they didn't know a audi,but they did know their "basics".knowing the basics is the best thing,if you know the basics,learning a manufacture will come natural,
because you will understand what's going on.try and find a school that will care about you,not one that only cares about your $$$$.one that will teach you.
for starting out,i don't recommend a dealer to apprentice at.i recommend a private shop.a private shop will be the best place to apply what you have learned and to learn what you haven't learned without the pressure.in a dealer it's hard to start learning because of the flat rate system.for you to learn,someone has to teach/show you.more than likely that would be from a senior tech.unfortunately it's hard for us,because we have to run the clock to make a living,and there is only so much time we can spend with you with out going broke[no fault of yours].if you do start off at a dealer,start by preping new cars for delivery.do this for 2 reasons.1]you will get used to the product[how it works,what makes what work,etc.]2]most new cars have something wrong with them,from minor to major right from the start.this will get your mind to think and apply what you have learned.don't start off flat rate.start with a salary,even if it's on the low side.the $$$ will come in time.everybody wants to start making the big $$$ right away,but it's not like that out here.like some of the other posts here,what pays is the "gravy work".this is the work you don't need a mind for.all your doing is changing parts,if this is what you want to do,don't bother with tech schools,etc.if you start in a good private shop,you will get both worlds without the political hassles of the dealerships.after 1-2 years in the private shop,you would be ready for a dealer at maybe a "c" level.
ase's are important,they can be a barginning agent,but word of caution,just because you get certified that still doesn't mean big $$$.i've seen guys that had more patches than a pair of jeans but were dangerous with a wrench and screwdriver.all the ase's mean is that you know what you're talking about that's it.everything else comes with experience.
i hope this helps and if i've bent anybody out of shape i didn't mean to,i just have been doing this a long time and happen to be very good at it and know what it takes to become good at it.
sorry for the long post!

LS1MONSTER

iTrader: (1)

Very informative Don. I'am one of those UTI graduates. And will be entering VW's training in a couple of months. I hear good things about the instructors at VW and hopefully thats the truth. I don't want to become those Audi guys you mentioned in your post. Thanks for advice..i'll be sure to use it.

Bimmer Tech

iTrader: (1)

Where I work, there are only seven techs, a service manager, a parts manager, one car washer and a shuttle person...that's it. Since we're so few we have to work together and we pool our hours to make it more of a team effort. There is still some competition between us, but that's natural. The techs write the work orders (no service writers, we're the only place in the US like this) and we pull the orders as we become available for more work. It's a good work environment becuase of this, we have no writers, salesmen, managers or parts people to get in the way or screw stuff up. If something happens we know its our fault.

Pay wise, you best bet is to get a guaranteed number of hours for at least the first 6 months or a year to make sure you have a paycheck. Most places will do this anyways though, and take you off of it when you start making 35-45 hours a week. $15/hour at a guaanteed 35 or 40 hours is a great start. Remenber though that most dealerships pay by whats you certified as, not the number of years of experience i.e. all Level 1s get paid the same per flat hour, all the Masters get paid the same per flat hour no matter if they've been there 5 years or 25 years.

-Chuck

BTW, if you go BMW, almost all the shops don't care about the ASEs. You don't even need them to become a Master anymore.

Excal

thanks alot..very helpful Don and Bimmer tech.

wow i've never even heard of "brittish leyland"..i have a question: do you feel electronics are the most important skill for dealership diagnostic work (down the line)?

wow i expected you to say they were full of hot air...

I'm going the school route for my own accomplishment, experience will come with time but i want that base.

so when one hits that plateu..i guess it's time to get the resume up to date and move on huh?


I'm totally inexperienced...but i soak stuff up like a sponge when it's something i care about, I was mainly worried about the Training, if they teach it i'm willing to learn it. I definetly have no bias when it comes to engines (because i realize knowing more means more choices for me, and i'm really a fan of the automobile itself rather than any make).

I'll try to work in the cars of the house, doing stuff like oil and filter, shocks and regular maintenance.

i have to say in other places i have gotten discouraging/bitter responses from techs, some who might be really good but don't have the education and might feel underappreicated.

yeah i've found out ASE is like the icing on cake..you still need the cake itself to be good for those to matter.

I figure they help out the resume though..

Pete2k_Z28

That has a lot to do with the place they work, the kind of general attitude they have anyway, and their skill. If the guy in the bay next to them is making 2x the hours they are, and they're bitching about how much the trade sucks, well who's fault is that? If nobody's making money in the shop, it's probably not the people but the place, and it's time to find somewhere else to go.

Is it a tough business? Yeah, pretty much. Can it be enjoyable and can you make a pretty damn good living? Yes.

It's not for everybody, but you'll figure that out soon enough.

The fact that this thread is still at the top shows that you're enthusiastic about it though, and that's a good thing. There's almost always one or two guys in the shop with a bad attitude, don't listen to their BS and don't let them discourage you.

Bimmer Tech

iTrader: (1)

Replies in order in which the questions appear:
You will learn that your voltmeter is you rbest friend when it comes to electrical gremlins. You don't need to worry so much about the electronics portion since if a electronic device goes bad, it gets replaced (well, at least BMW wise). Electrical is very important.

One someone reaches Master, that is almost the top. Being a Level 1 Diag myself, I make more than the managers here. About the only thing higher pay wise if the Service Manager. Most of them are former techs. But the Master's usually stay put for a while because it does pay good. In Florida, $70-75k/year is no problem being a good Master.

Experience only comes with time and practice. There is almost no job that comes in now that I haven't seen before..I'd say 98%. Its the other 2% that makes me scratch my head before I dive into it. This is also with only 2 years on the job. Staying with one brand really helps out with being productive.

-Chuck
chukjagr@hotmail.com

Excal

yeah i figure staying in one brand is that way to go...

75k in florida? aren't they notorious for paynig lower (since they have no income tax i believe).

I've had enough snow this year already and was considering moving down there after school and my 6months were up after step.

It's good to hear you feel comfortable on your skills after a couple of years, do you accredit that (besides experience) to STEP or what?

don

ok,i see quite a few of you guys have been doing this for a while or are looking to start doing this[spinning a wrench for a living]for a living.
like i posted earlier,i've been around cars a long time[british-leyland = triumph
/mg,rover]and have became pretty successful[for the most part]with it.
i see that alot of you guys are going through uti/lincoln tech/etc.and are wondering what's out here.some of the guys who have posted already have also been around and have pretty much given out what it is like.
i am presently looking to upgrade my shop[i'm a foreman for a audi dealership]and better it for 2004 on and would be interested in talking with some,if not all those of you who would be interested in doing this for a living[not a hobby].i would like to bring in guys who WANT to be really GOOD techs
and not PARTS CHANGERS.
right now the scale of good techs compared to parts changers/loosers is low.in all do honesty,i have been spinning a wrench 23 years and as the years go on,less and less quality techs are showing up an guys like myself and others get stuck with the cars that are problems[cars that you have to have a brain to fix]while the guy across from you[the guy with a iq of -0]is making a killing doing the money making work[maintenances,brakes,etc.].this unfortunately is a reality.i can relate to the phrase"the more you know,the lower you go",but on the other hand,i like the fact that people come to me because they know i know what i'm talking about.
electronics is now the age of cars.the # of computers in a car is phenominal.the 04 a8 has 67[vw,bmw,porsche,etc.all have about the same].the way they communicate is through gateways and can data,fiber optics where as the american cars are just starting to go that route[i believe the 04's are going the candata route from the class 2 communication]so the complexity of the cars is going to be a culture shock to the new guys when you come in to the shop as,unfortunately school[be it uti,lincoln tech,etc]can't teach you the real world,so if you really want to do this for a living,try to get into a shop now,and try to absorb as much as you can,if you start off on the right foot,the money will follow.